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 Post subject: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:58 am 
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Here is a description I did in WC4 of what I think a Spider Duelist should be like. Any one want to help me design it?

Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:
"A Spider Duelist should be a thing to fear. Those whom stand against one, be it on the battlefield or in the dueling ring, should dread it and question their own Knowledge and Insight. As the Will of our Bushi can inspire a lust for blood in our allies allowing blows that would not have killed to do so, the Will of our Duelists should inspire fear of death in our enemies and make their killing blows falter. The two Wills in tandem should be something none wish to face. When a Duelist strikes with his Katana or Nodachi, it is a single Perfect stroke that is fast and Strong with unparallelled Control. A Daigotsu Bushi should be proud to have one standing at their side as a different form of Strength and the Courtiers of the Susumu should Know that their Perfection is their to help them Control the courts."


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:02 am 
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I don't the mechanics not well enough to help design a school. But there is the Obsidian Blade School in 3rd Edition. I don't have my books on me, but I can later provide their mechanics as a starting point.

Or did the school suck balls and you're all glad it didn't make it into 4th Edition?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:28 am 
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i'm similarly ignorant of mechanics, for the most part, but my contribution would be to look at our iconic dueling personalities for inspiration.

http://kazenoshiro.com/kazenoshiro/9/h9e01p470.php - featuring both Shimekiri and Sahara, with some nice style descriptions for both.
http://kazenoshiro.com/kazenoshiro/9/h9e01p420.php - Shimekiri being a raging badass. not a duel, but certainly a demonstration of his style.
http://kazenoshiro.com/kazenoshiro/9/h9e01p470.php - Sahara's victory at a dueling tournament

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:59 am 
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It would be cool if Spider duelists didn't focus on speed. Hell, if they didn't even draw until after you hit them. They just have an ability to soak and ignore damage for a round, and then strike you once. Then all damage is applied. Lots of kharmic strikes, but how intimidating would that be? His arm is half hanging off, but with a wicked grin he slowly draws his katana and reaches way back for a strong strike.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:03 am 
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As far as redesigning Spider schools go, I want to see a Daigotsu Bushi school and a Daigotsu Conqueror school, where the former is made up of those socially acceptable Spider such as Atsushi and Geiko, and the latter being about using the Taint to get awesome, flip out and kill things.

i3ullseye wrote:
It would be cool if Spider duelists didn't focus on speed. Hell, if they didn't even draw until after you hit them. They just have an ability to soak and ignore damage for a round, and then strike you once. Then all damage is applied. Lots of kharmic strikes, but how intimidating would that be? His arm is half hanging off, but with a wicked grin he slowly draws his katana and reaches way back for a strong strike.
This is the philosophy of the Unbroken Blade Dojo of the Crab. Do you really want to emulate the Crab?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:07 am 
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I live this kind of shit! I'm drafting my theory for the Susumu but I will defiantly contribute. I mean goodness, one of Doburu's personal goals was to take Atsushi as his yojimbo, then turn his raw potential into something terrifying. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:20 am 
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I definitely think the school should be an untainted one, or at most have taint be an optional upgrade. Depends on how much you want to emphasize Shimekiri's influence i suppose. Either way, i definitely think that Shourido would demand speed as much as strength.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:25 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
This is the philosophy of the Unbroken Blade Dojo of the Crab. Do you really want to emulate the Crab?


Well... yes. I think in all things strength and endurance the Spider should strive to do what others have done before us, but do it better just to prove our superiority. All things sneaky, we should excel. I don't want people to cry about the Spider just having Monks like Dragon, or Ninja like Scorpion, or Bushi like Crab.... I want them to cry because we are better at it than they are. Because.... Shourido....


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:38 am 
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Since a lot of our Duelists have Fear actions on them, and our dueling Sensei makes a Fear for winning a duel...

I think having a Dueling technique that is an alternative Rank 2 for the Daigotsu Bushi would be best, that uses Intimidate to bolster rolls / inflict a Fear effect on their opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:54 am 
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I'm a bit of a mechanics junky in addition to loving well done fluff. I absolutely adore when they support each other.

The mechanical ideas that I have for this school's techniques* are:

  • Spend Void to create a Fear aura
  • A mirror of the Kakita Bushi Rank 3 Tech that would make Karmic Strikes more common and make it more difficult for opponents to get Free Raises on the Strike roll. (Both Atsushi and Sahara have won major duels off of Kharmic Strikes)
  • Simple Action Attacks with the Katana, No-dachi, Wakazashi and Urumi (Invidi Whipsword)

kakita_shiro wrote:
As far as redesigning Spider schools go, I want to see a Daigotsu Bushi school and a Daigotsu Conqueror school, where the former is made up of those socially acceptable Spider such as Atsushi and Geiko, and the latter being about using the Taint to get awesome, flip out and kill things.


I have a similar motive and mentality with the Duelists being socially acceptable and the Bushi being the ones that use the taint to flip out and kill things with what ever is handy.

i3ullseye wrote:
It would be cool if Spider duelists didn't focus on speed. Hell, if they didn't even draw until after you hit them. They just have an ability to soak and ignore damage for a round, and then strike you once. Then all damage is applied. Lots of kharmic strikes, but how intimidating would that be? His arm is half hanging off, but with a wicked grin he slowly draws his katana and reaches way back for a strong strike.


They still need to be fast otherwise they would suck in duels to first blood, but I kind of went with that idea in a story I told to Otomo Mizuki.

I'd like to avoid a situation where taking the Dark Paragon (Will) and Dark Paragon (Determination) are redundant. It is bad enough that Strength of the Spider is basically DP (Determination Lite).

*No ranks are assigned just ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:42 pm 
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Ignoring speed utterly is pretty much How to Lose At Iaijutsu 101, as well as ignoring Shimekiri's own Kakita roots...

Maybe just a Path that lets you spend a Void to create a Fear effect equal to your Iaijutsu skill rank during Assessment.... as they examine the Spider duelist, the Perfection and Determination they see shake them to the core of their being, impairing their ability to fight.

Might be too overpowered, but it's where I'd start...

'Cause Fear in the RPG, unlike the CCG, is pretty damn spiffy.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:50 pm 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
Ignoring speed utterly is pretty much How to Lose At Iaijutsu 101, as well as ignoring Shimekiri's own Kakita roots...

Maybe just a Path that lets you spend a Void to create a Fear effect equal to your Iaijutsu skill rank during Assessment.... as they examine the Spider duelist, the Perfection and Determination they see shake them to the core of their being, impairing their ability to fight.

Might be too overpowered, but it's where I'd start...

'Cause Fear in the RPG, unlike the CCG, is pretty damn spiffy.


I think this would work, actually. Replaces their Rank 2 "Aura of Blood" Technique. Instead, it's a focused sort of thing.

Spend a Void point during the Assessment phase and gain a Fear rating to your School Rank + Taint Rank which your opponent must immediately check against.

Too powerful? If it's not powerful enough, we might want to add a "Add your ranks in Intimidation to your Iajutsu rolls."

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:12 pm 
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I don't know if I'd make an entire school out of it, but a rank 1 or 2 path that makes your Intimidate skill help in some way with your Focus roll, or shield you from your opponent's Assessment or Strike. Fluff it up with the duelist adopting a ferocious grin as his On for the duration of the duel.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:15 pm 
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I like the ideas that have been thrown around so far.

A unique Spider Kata would go a long way. I feel that the Thousand Years of Steel Kata shouldn't be a requirement when making a duelist.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:34 am 
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The best rank for this Technique would be Rank 2. It won't interfere with the first signature power of the Daigotsu Bushi (the wound penalty reduction / damage buff), and it does not stop the Simple Action Attacks at Rank 3. Neither the Rank 4 or the Rank 5 build on the Rank 2, so it is mechanically effective.

You are trading out a Party Buff for a singular debuff of your opponent in a duel. Compare it to the Mirumoto Niten Rank 2 ability, where they gain a slight dueling buff, and a boost to shugenja.

Looking at the rules on Fear, I think a Fear rating of your School Rank + Taint Rank would actually be the best way of going about it. It keeps your emphasis on being boosted by your ties to Jigoku, while still not being useless without it. Fear 2 at Rank 2 is a TN 15 on a Willpower roll + Honor. Assume average Willpower of 3, Honor 4, most characters at Rank 2 won't fail this. Make it Fear 3 with a rank of Taint? TN 20. Most characters may fail it. 2 Ranks of Taint? Fear 4.

And most will fail it at Rank 2 at that point.

The chief benefit of this Technique would be the passive adding of your Intimidation skill to your Iajutsu rolls. Which, if you combine it with the Obsidian Magistrate at Rank 1... Would make you a pretty scary duelist at Rank 2 without Taint, and a TERRIFYING duelist with Taint.

Assume: Iajutsu 4, Perception 3, Intimidation 4, Void 3, Air 3

Assessment - 7k4 + 8
Focus - 8k5 + 11
Strike - 7k4 + 8 + their Honor rank

Add +1 all the rolls above for each Rank of Taint you possess, and the ability to strip out dice through Fear. And now you have a plain out MURDER machine duelist.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:05 am 
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sndwurks wrote:
Looking at the rules on Fear, I think a Fear rating of your School Rank + Taint Rank would actually be the best way of going about it. It keeps your emphasis on being boosted by your ties to Jigoku, while still not being useless without it. Fear 2 at Rank 2 is a TN 15 on a Willpower roll + Honor. Assume average Willpower of 3, Honor 4, most characters at Rank 2 won't fail this. Make it Fear 3 with a rank of Taint? TN 20. Most characters may fail it. 2 Ranks of Taint? Fear 4.

I like the mechanical concept and was considering it myself, but a starting Rank 1 Kakita Duelist has a 72% chance of succeeding versus a R2 character with the path. It therefore pretty much makes Taint necessary not nice for the technique to be useful.

Quote:
Assume: Iajutsu 4, Perception 3, Intimidation 4, Void 3, Air 3

Assessment - 7k3 + 7
Focus - 8k4 + 10 (+1k1 if you win the Assessment by 10)
Strike - 8k4 + 10 + difference in Honor rank

Add +1 all the rolls above for each Rank of Taint you possess, and the ability to strip out dice through Fear. And now you have a plain out MURDER machine duelist.

Not really when pretty much anyone else can match it with a Kata. Obsidian Magistrate is giving the real benefit here.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:04 am 
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You're not going to beat the Kakita Duelist at being a duelist at Rank 2. At that point, the Kakita has 2 Techniques specialized around being awesome at dueling.

I'm comparing this to the Mirumoto Niten School for power in the terms of dueling. Perhaps we should make it phrased as "During the Reactions step of a Skirmish or the Assessment phase of a duel, spend 1 Void. Gain a Fear rating equal to your School Rank + Taint Rank. This benefit lasts the length of the combat. Additionally, add your ranks in Intimidation to all your Iajutsu rolls."?

Alternatively, you could closet case it to make you use Intimidate in the place of Iajutsu for the Assessment and Focus rolls, but L5R 4E is not very big on the Substitution rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:15 am 
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If you can make them bow to you before the swords are pulled, then you win the duel. If you can always make your opponent bow to you before swords are pulled because you scare the living shit out of them, that makes you the best duelist. I like the fear-before-strike stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:42 am 
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i like the fear stuff we've got so far. i'd rather see it its own school though, rather than just a path for daigotsu bushi. its a solid school, but i feel like it doesn't have much in common with a modern spider duelist. in order for them to be maximally effective to the clan, they'll need to be untainted, which means to me at least that they'd focus on dueling and not the tainted warmonster aspect of our bushi. while shimekiri was tainted, sahara was not, and even shimekiri never emphasized his taint so much as leveraged it for that extra push.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:31 am 
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sndwurks wrote:
You're not going to beat the Kakita Duelist at being a duelist at Rank 2. At that point, the Kakita has 2 Techniques specialized around being awesome at dueling.

I'm comparing this to the Mirumoto Niten School for power in the terms of dueling. Perhaps we should make it phrased as "During the Reactions step of a Skirmish or the Assessment phase of a duel, spend 1 Void. Gain a Fear rating equal to your School Rank + Taint Rank. This benefit lasts the length of the combat. Additionally, add your ranks in Intimidation to all your Iajutsu rolls."?

Alternatively, you could closet case it to make you use Intimidate in the place of Iajutsu for the Assessment and Focus rolls, but L5R 4E is not very big on the Substitution rules.

I used the Kakita Bushi(maybe Iron Warrior or Shiba Bushi would have been better) as an example because of how easy it is to resist a Fear 2 for High Honor IR 1 characters that do not have any associated advantages. Spending a void point for a 28%/36% chance of causing -2k0 all of a lower IR character's rolls in a duel is a bit to expensive, and jumping to a 66%/72% chance of inflicting a -3k0 with one rank of Taint is a bit to good.

Perhaps Fear equal to School Rank with a bonus to the TN to resist equal to your Intimidate+Taint?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:05 am 
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What would be a good Fear rating then? And are we aiming for Homebrew stuff, or stuff to try to get published in the Imperial Herald? For the former, it can be as complicated as you want. For the latter, you need it simple and easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:10 pm 
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I'd love for the Spider to get a new 5 rank School published in the Imperial Herald. As I believe you said in one of our threads in the Spider Embassy, the Spider lack options compared to the other clans right now. I'd rather avoid anything we develop being a path because that tends to push us more, in my mind, towards the "optional" clan side of things when we need more stuff to push us towards the "We have this! Don't you want to play it? If so play Spider!" side.

I think something like this would work well for a Rank 2:

Death stands before You wrote:
As a Simple Action, or a Free Action when in a duel, a Spider Duelist can spend a void point unleash an aura of terror. All those within 30' that you do not consider your allies take a -2k0 penalty to all rolls unless they make an immediate Willpower check adding their Honor to the total against a TN of 5 + (5 x your School Rank) plus your ranks in Intimidate plus your Taint Rank. This penalty lasts until the end of the encounter or you are removed from the area prior to that.

This is considered a Fear effect. A catastrophic failure by 15 or more has its normal effects.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:27 pm 
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Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:
I'd love for the Spider to get a new 5 rank School published in the Imperial Herald. As I believe you said in one of our threads in the Spider Embassy, the Spider lack options compared to the other clans right now.


Actually, there are piles of gaps in various Clans... true, mostly on the Advanced School end of things, but if you aren't Lion, Crab, or Scorpion, there's a LOT of room for various options....

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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:20 pm 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
Actually, there are piles of gaps in various Clans... true, mostly on the Advanced School end of things, but if you aren't Lion, Crab, or Scorpion, there's a LOT of room for various options....


According to the Master School List:
Crab have 8 full Schools, 17 paths and 1 Advanced School,
Crane have 7 full Schools, 16 paths and 4 Advanced Schools
Dragon have 7 full Schools, 14 paths and 3 Advanced Schools
Lion have 7 full Schools, 15 paths and 3 Advanced Schools
Mantis have 7 full Schools, 16 paths and 2 Advanced Schools
Phoenix have 6 full Schools, 20 paths and 2 Advanced Schools
Scorpion have 7 full Schools, 14 paths and 2 Advanced Schools
Unicorn have 9 full Schools, 15 paths and 1 Advanced School

Spider have 6 full Schools, 1 incomplete School, 7 paths and 2 Advanced Schools. 3 of the full Schools are the "forbidden" Chuda Shugenja, Goju Ninja and Ninube Shungenja. Chuda Necromancer, Chuda Subversive and Dark Whisper paths are Taint based.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's Make a new Spider Duelist School
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:35 pm 
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that is the exact comment that got me (effectively) banned from posting in the rpg subforum. aww nostalgia. dace didn't take kindly to numbers backing up my assertion that the spider were underrepresented.

edit: as thats not an exactly helpful contribution, i will add:

I like the rank 2 we've got there. its thematic and practical. i think it should be asked a) how closely do we want to compete with the other dueling schools and b) how monofocused do we want to be on dueling. i'd argue a) as strong as possible without sacrificing all hope that it might get accepted and b) we've got a bushi school that (though i think its decreasingly relevant to modern spider) is functional for general asskicking. if someone is in the duelist school, its to train with Sahara or Shimekiri or one of their students, so it should be strongly dueling focused.

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