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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:27 pm 
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Daigotsu's Legion
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I'm going to have a good think about how I can contribute. Though I have the glimmers of a character idea already.

And I agree with Goju that a whole alternate timeline would be best. Fresh start as it were.

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just, no, guys. no. you can make him the son of daigotsu, honor that legacy, live that legacy, without him being Hulk Hogan in a white wig.


It occurs to me that maybe one of Kanpeki's daughters should be named Shahai to honor her grandmother, and might be a powerful maho-tsukai. Just throwing that out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:43 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
Chuda Riichi wrote:
I think the problem with Kanpeki being an awesome Shugenja, is that he then just ends up turning into Daigotsu 2.0. And some people may want that, but I don't think that is a majority of people.


which i'm sure is why they made the choice they did. its a classic AEG move though. "well people bitch about daigotsu, so lets make him the OPPOSITE OF DAIGOTSU!".

just, no, guys. no. you can make him the son of daigotsu, honor that legacy, live that legacy, without him being Hulk Hogan in a white wig.


Maybe the idea was to show that a Spider can be big and scary, and not have to have the Taint.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:51 pm 
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Goju wrote:
Now i don't want to be negative, but is there anyone who actually likes the story and that whats happened in Lotus/Samurai/Celestial/Ivory...? :lol:


Well, I started in Samurai...so...

Let's summarize what I understand so far:

-A logical depiction of Kanpeki. He doesn't sacrifice his wife, but does it also means he stay away from the taint? I can see him being a cold tactician using his father's blessing on others rather and staying pure to remain in control of his own mind. I also think the ''bruiser'' look of Kanpeki is mostly about the art. I don't recall a specific instance where he is described as a mountain of muscles. Using the image of a ''younger'' look as a basis might be just enough.

There is also the consideration of his talent as a shugenja. Officially, he was raised by the imperials. Considering the power of his father, I can totally understand why they never teached him the ways of the kami, even if he had the ability. It is even possible powerful Seppuns or Isawas were called in to seal his potential away so he wouldn't become like his father. It does mean, however, that his children will probably inherit that trait.

-A better depiction of the Spider Clan:

I'm not sure where to go about this one. Can you identify what is problematic with the Spider clan under Iweko's rule. I myself found logical our role, given the rest of Rokugan's aversion for the taint and the shadowland. Sending the corrupted away in a conquest mission was killing two birds with one stone.

-Remove any mention of the seals:

I agree this really came out of nowhere. How can you explain the ability of the Spider Clan to take control of the Empire? It can be explained with a different approach for the Spider Clan post Destroyer War, or by only using the Black Scrolls. What if after that Yoritomo guy opened the first black scroll and destroyed the Mantis Islands, Kanpeki sends his agent to discover the location of the other 11 and use them to increase his power or manipulate events to his advantage (Send Seiken further down in his madness, if that's a road worth taking, Bolster his own armies, Corrupt the land itself, etc.) There is also the possibility that Kanpeki manages to gather enough support to rule, but that would require the Clans to act out of character, be deceived hard or Seiken or whichever Emperor being there to be a complete monster/moron/incompetent for the Spider Clan's Champion to become a viable replacement.

I can offer a different timeline as a starting point, but I would like to hear your ideas about these issues or other issues you want to bring forward. Continue the good work!

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:53 pm 
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Tetsuhiko wrote:
I'm not sure. While I agree this is an alternative timeline, I don't want to rewrite toi much of it. I still want it to feel somehow, like a continuation of Ivory.

There is a lot of room for retcons and modifications, however. If there is a particular element in the official timeline you don't like (or my extended one). Point it out and we'll find a way to make it work.


Not to rain on your parade, I know how attached people get to their WC characters (I got far more invested in mine than I ever expected to be) - but I find it very hard to buy this "Koji sets up a shadow bureaucracy" thing getting off the ground. In order to make it work, he needs the co-operation of the Clans - and who, exactly, is going to give that co-operation? Most of Rokugan has the Otomo in their cross-hairs at this point. There was an Imperial decree regarding the restoration of records after the Imperial library burned down, but a) there was nothing about private documents being made available and b) the whole point of this scenario is that Imperial authority is in a state of collapse. Koji may very well attempt this and shop around for support, but who's going to take time out of their day to hand secret Clan documents over to a disgraced* ex-bureaucrat?

* No offence, but... being disgraced is Koji's job. He's been fired from every post he ever held, by design. And he was publicly shamed for insulting both the Crane and the Scorpion at WCIV. Who is going to conspire with him?

As for how the Spider Clan seizes power - I think the only two plausible routes are to employ some Deus Ex Machina nonsense like the seals, or to successfully go a political route. The former is very unsatisfying to me, which leaves finding a way to make the latter work. But then, my vote is already for a Spider Empire that eschews mass use of the Taint, so if you want the Spider to be all "RAR! Sanity is for the weak! I FEEL THE TAINT OVERTAKING ME - IT IS A GOOD PAIN!" then I can see how doing it plausibly would present difficulties.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:08 pm 
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Side concept to make the entire "Tainted Emperor & Taint Empire" thing stick.

Kanpeki bargains with Big D after claiming the throne that the "Blessing of Jigoku" is now a privilege that the new "Imperial" Family can only hand out.

You want the power of a dozen samurai in a single human? Prove yourself to Hantei and it can happen. Make the "Blessing" into something that is desirable because, like any good drug dealer, we tell you it's new and improved then hide the ugly addicts and burnouts so that it looks like only the cool and talented kids are doing it.

Taint is still in remission with the majority of the populace. If you try to bring out your taint by yourself, you have a much lower chance of being super awesome (and a better chance of turning into a monster) than someone coaxed into it with a special ritual (all "Blessed Samurai" are branded, easy to spot a Heretic). The Goju are charged with hunting down those who steal the Blessing without approval. People who are "Blessed" have extra control over the tainted populace. As the majority of the Imperial and Spider Families are "Blessed", they have lots of privileges in life.

Crab Clan- Eschews the Taint except for the Damned, a section of berserkers who steal the "Blessing". Hunts the free-roaming Shadowlands that Big D can't control that come out from both Pits. Knows the Hantei line is a bunch of bastards but a Rogukan in one piece is better than a Rogukan destroyed. Waiting for their time to make a Coup and "Seal Jigoku off permanently"

Crane - Business as usual. Mostly untainted. Large section of "Cool Kids" that try to take the Blessing for themselves, relatively successful and new perma-enemies of the Goju and somehow became ninja hunters basically.

Dragon - Meditating on a rock. New sect of Tattooed monks that use the blood of Oni and other mystical beasts for ink since the blood of Togashi has almost run out, everyone in all of the clans has mixed feelings about this.

Lion - Business as usual. Mostly untainted. Most Deathseekers aspire to get "Blessed" can then wander into the Shadowlands or the outer reaches of the Colonies to leave their mark.

Mantis - Mostly Tainted, not much left of the Mantis. Business as usual. Spider Aligned.

Phoenix - Completely Tainted, never Blessed. Slaved to the Hantei line as they were the original dissenters, more vocal than the Crab. Shrinking as the shame of the Isawa has led to many less marriages between the clans and the Isawa Family, and they are runnning out of households in the Phoenix to intermarry to without inbreeding. Plotting a coup, most likely yo try to support another "God" into overthrowing Big D in Jigoku.

Scorpion - Moderately Tainted and Blessed. Business as usual. Half hate the Hantei line more, half hates the rest of the clans more. Section of the Yogo found out the resting place of the Shadow Dragon, silly things may happen to the Goju. Waiting to see what happens and which side to take, lots of Kolat Hunting.

Unicorn - Mostly Tainted and good amount of Blessed. Business as usual, except with a touch more Kolat. Spider Aligned.

Kolat - Still around, no tainted allowed. If you become tainted, you have to become "Blessed" or die trying. Tainted are weak link. Use all the tools available.


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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:23 pm 
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^ My dislike for this is intense and furious.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:26 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
I am dramatically in the minority, but i'm a big fan of Gp4. But similarly in the minority... i really dislike Kanpeki. i think they really fucked up making him a hulking bruiser. He's the opposite of what he should of been and in every game i run, i spin the clock back to Gp4 and redo him because he bothers me. That the son of two of the greatest shugenja of all time should end up a roided out WWF wannabe is just. ugh.


This x1000.

While I still like the original Argyle artwork for Kanpeki, I was still dissapointed when it was revealed. Not being a badass shugenja/maho-tsukai is like Yoritomos heir being afraid of water..
It was a huge mistake imho. Shibatsu with Shugenja powers is what Kanpeki should have been. Also he should have picked a better name at his gempukku (no offense Big D, pbuh).

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:37 pm 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
^ My dislike for this is intense and furious.

“One, Poochie needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Two, whenever Poochie's not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Poochie"? Three—”


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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:01 pm 
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Yeaaaah... a little... well
No, lets not go that way, we've got enough enemies

To be honest, i still can't understand the tenacity to a horrible "canon" :shock:

I'm still saying the best would be the rewind time, new, fresh start!

The Spider Clan has WON the Torunament
Daigotsu is revealed himself as a Hantei, and Tengoku blessed him (like Iweko - immagine a Devinely blessed Daigotsu!) and purged his taint! The two Oracle bowed before him
Its not new for Daigotsu... he was clean once and still loyal to Fu Leng, so no porblem here
But now the Emperor is someone who KNOWS the Taint and Jigoku... and with the Shourido and Fu Lengs help - like in case of the Lost - can use it as a dark Gift, a weapon, something dark and sinister weapon, dangerous, but ultimatly, a tool
Then came the Destroyer war and since the Jacals warned him like years ago - one of the reasons behind the whole move in to the Empire thing if you remember - that Kali-Ma is coming... Rokugan is prepared
The story is the same: Fu Leng was kicked out... yada yada yada
Still so much life was lost... even with the divine powers, like Iweko, he can't protect everyone from the Taint and in the end the Emperor - Daigotsu - sacrificed himself for Rokugan to kill the demon goddess, reciveing FuFu's power in the process like in the "real" timeline and become Jigoku's Master (Fu Leng goes to Tengoku or reincarnated like Shinjo)
Empress Shahai is dead, the Maho ritual consumed her that helped his housband defeat Kali-Ma and Kanpeki is an orphan , rised by the Spiders, Clans etc, like he was in the cannon, and a ragent ruled/clan champion council
Daigotsu one day loose controll ower Jigoku, he knows it, but this sacrifice bought time for Rokugan to prepare to the tides of darkness (and the long long waited Yodotai invasion...)
But until that day come, the taint is kind of a blessing... the Ogres and undeads are disturbing army, but so much life lost... why lost more? The dead soilders can fight for Rokugan... and the young can have their fathers, brothers... family. One thing thats was always important for Daigotsu (and basically every rokugani). Skeletons and zombies in armor, or living being.. the difference? The living CAN die... and Rokugan is lost already so much life.
In time, they are... normal sight.
Image
Shackled onies working to rebuild the Empire
Image
With this and the Shourido, we can have an Onyx Empire (not really Obsidian per se)
Shourido and Bushido CAN and should co-exist... its an Empire based on servitude (as the Bushido expects) but this is the playground of the powerfull (as Shourido expects).
"Yes my lord, i will serve you with my life... if you are worthy for this! If you are, no problem.. if you are not, i will take your place, and i expect this mindset from my servants! "
So in this way Rokugan can be strong in spiritual and in, well, every way... ^^

But again, this is just my two koku :roll:


Last edited by Goju on Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:01 pm 
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Osoru wrote:
Also he should have picked a better name at his gempukku (no offense Big D, pbuh).

What's wrong with his name?

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:29 pm 
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Goju wrote:

To be honest, i still can't understand the tenacity to a horrible "canon" :shock:



The following is my personal opinion. If the majority rejects it, I will certainly join, but I'm pretty sure I'll follow my own idea as a side-side-project.

When I first proposed to idea, I imagined it as a wy to end the AEG L5R storyline with a Spider victory. It was a way to take what the Story Team had created (with its flaws, I admit) and make it a glorious end for our faction, and a potential new beginning for an alternate setting.

It was meant to be a sequel to the official canon. It was obvious some elements had to be retconned, but going as far back as the Race for the Throne defeats this purpose in my opinion. It's a big step between changing how some elements in Ivory were handled and ignoring most of Emperor and Ivory. I don't say this wouldn't be a cool setting. In fact, a Daigotsu controlled Empire, complete with divine backing would be fun to watch (and Kali-Ma would have been dealt very differently. For example, Furumaro would have had absolutly no reason to hide the fact he was Fu Leng and that opening the thirteen black scroll would restore his divine power, leading to a much different confrontation that would certainly leave most of Rokugan intact, Daigotsu still alive and well and Fu Leng back in control of Jigoku, perhaps in a way similar than Daigotsu was in Ivory).

However, this is not the Onyx I imagined. Once again, if using the canon storyline is too much or uninteresting for most of you, let'S scrap this project and start a new one, but I do believe we can make it work and create a worthy finale for all of us.

Daidoji Tacticus wrote:
Tetsuhiko wrote:
I'm not sure. While I agree this is an alternative timeline, I don't want to rewrite toi much of it. I still want it to feel somehow, like a continuation of Ivory.

There is a lot of room for retcons and modifications, however. If there is a particular element in the official timeline you don't like (or my extended one). Point it out and we'll find a way to make it work.


Not to rain on your parade, I know how attached people get to their WC characters (I got far more invested in mine than I ever expected to be) - but I find it very hard to buy this "Koji sets up a shadow bureaucracy" thing getting off the ground. In order to make it work, he needs the co-operation of the Clans - and who, exactly, is going to give that co-operation? Most of Rokugan has the Otomo in their cross-hairs at this point. There was an Imperial decree regarding the restoration of records after the Imperial library burned down, but a) there was nothing about private documents being made available and b) the whole point of this scenario is that Imperial authority is in a state of collapse. Koji may very well attempt this and shop around for support, but who's going to take time out of their day to hand secret Clan documents over to a disgraced* ex-bureaucrat?

* No offence, but... being disgraced is Koji's job. He's been fired from every post he ever held, by design. And he was publicly shamed for insulting both the Crane and the Scorpion at WCIV. Who is going to conspire with him?

As for how the Spider Clan seizes power - I think the only two plausible routes are to employ some Deus Ex Machina nonsense like the seals, or to successfully go a political route. The former is very unsatisfying to me, which leaves finding a way to make the latter work. But then, my vote is already for a Spider Empire that eschews mass use of the Taint, so if you want the Spider to be all "RAR! Sanity is for the weak! I FEEL THE TAINT OVERTAKING ME - IT IS A GOOD PAIN!" then I can see how doing it plausibly would present difficulties.


I added Koji's bit because, as you said, I'm attached to my WC character, but he is but a relatively unimportant part of the timeline. I wouldn't mind simply ignoring him and removing him from the setting if it feels out of place or uninteresting.

In addition, for now, I would much prefer we focus on how Kanpeki rose to power like you pointed out than arguing back and forth about a small-time Imperial bureaucrat.

That being said, I would like to offer some clarification about Koji's master plan before moving on. The reason you presented are exactly why the Otomo used a Monk Order. By pushing the Order of Tenjin forward rather than their own member, they lessen the suspicion the Clans might have. The timing o the Imperial edict helped as well, with the destruction of the Imperial Library waking everyone about the importance of having an empire-wide web of Library Monastery so the loss of one of them isn't catastrophic.

In addition, the edict clearly states the Clans have to share their public records. The monks would not go and ask for clan secrets. The plan of Koji is to create a semblance of bureaucratic order within the order of Tenjin, not run the government in its place. And the monks being, in fact, seasoned spies, would also means those secrets the clan have are not complelty safe. They wouldn't have access to all of them, but for enough information to have a general understanding.

Finally, while Koji was in the spotlight (somehow) during WC, his whole concept is about anonimity. He is just one bureaucrat among many. His name was only rarely pointed out officially and I ended this WC with a ridiculously low glory score, by choice. He is meant to be forgettable. It is true he ''lost'' his jobs, but he also worked for the same individuals several time, without being noticed at all.

If he were to shave his head and join the order, he would just be an ordinary monk doing his job.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:49 pm 
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Goju wrote:
Yeaaaah... a little... well
No, lets not go that way, we've got enough enemies

To be honest, i still can't understand the tenacity to a horrible "canon" :shock:

I'm still saying the best would be the rewind time, new, fresh start!

The Spider Clan has WON the Torunament
Daigotsu is revealed himself as a Hantei, and Tengoku blessed him (like Iweko - immagine a Devinely blessed Daigotsu!) and purged his taint! The two Oracle bowed before him
Its not new for Daigotsu... he was clean once and still loyal to Fu Leng, so no porblem here
But now the Emperor is someone who KNOWS the Taint and Jigoku... and with the Shourido and Fu Lengs help - like in case of the Lost - can use it as a dark Gift, a weapon, something dark and sinister weapon, dangerous, but ultimatly, a tool
Then came the Destroyer war and since the Jacals warned him like years ago - one of the reasons behind the whole move in to the Empire thing if you remember - that Kali-Ma is coming... Rokugan is prepared
The story is the same: Fu Leng was kicked out... yada yada yada
Still so much life was lost... even with the divine powers, like Iweko, he can't protect everyone from the Taint and in the end the Emperor - Daigotsu - sacrificed himself for Rokugan to kill the demon goddess, reciveing FuFu's power in the process like in the "real" timeline and become Jigoku's Master (Fu Leng goes to Tengoku or reincarnated like Shinjo)
Empress Shahai is dead, the Maho ritual consumed her that helped his housband defeat Kali-Ma and Kanpeki is an orphan , rised by the Spiders, Clans etc, like he was in the cannon, and a ragent ruled/clan champion council
Daigotsu one day loose controll ower Jigoku, he knows it, but this sacrifice bought time for Rokugan to prepare to the tides of darkness (and the long long waited Yodotai invasion...)
But until that day come, the taint is kind of a blessing... the Ogres and undeads are disturbing army, but so much life lost... why lost more? The dead soilders can fight for Rokugan... and the young can have their fathers, brothers... family. One thing thats was always important for Daigotsu (and basically every rokugani). Skeletons and zombies in armor, or living being.. the difference? The living CAN die... and Rokugan is lost already so much life.
In time, they are... normal sight.
Image
Shackled onies working to rebuild the Empire
Image
With this and the Shourido, we can have an Onyx Empire (not really Obsidian per se)
Shourido and Bushido CAN and should co-exist... its an Empire based on servitude (as the Bushido expects) but this is the playground of the powerfull (as Shourido expects).
"Yes my lord, i will serve you with my life... if you are worthy for this! If you are, no problem.. if you are not, i will take your place, and i expect this mindset from my servants! "
So in this way Rokugan can be strong in spiritual and in, well, every way... ^^

But again, this is just my two koku :roll:


yeah, now, this is has legs.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:46 pm 
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Quote:
yeah, now, this is has legs.


I have to agree. This setting sounds pretty awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:50 pm 
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So i wanted to give this Dark Celestial thing a shot of my own, so here goes:

Daigotsu presents himself, the last Hantei, at the tournament, and for reasons at this juncture not necessary to speculate upon is selected as the winner of the tournament. he receives the blessings of the heavens and is purified. in doing so, as has been pointed out, he loses his taint. His first decree as Emperor Daigotsu I: the commissioning of a Great Clan in the honor of his patron, the Ninth Kami, Fu Leng. To this new Great Clan, the Spider, he gives a single mission: they are the last resort. when all else has failed, else dark days require dark deeds, the spider are called upon. And while they wait for those summons, they attend the Emperor as his personal guard. Shortly after his ascension, Daigotsu marries Shahai. A heretofor unknown monk named Furumaru is named Voice of the Emperor. Mere days after his ascension, the new Emperor begins a MASSIVE mobilization of the armies of Rokugan, and declares that the reason the heaven's selected him is that he is the only person who can save Rokugan from a new threat: Kali-Ma.

Over the next four years, The Emperor proves a commanding leader. Though his methods often horrify the clans (though he remains pure, he openly employs bloodspeakers and the lost), his charisma and unyield dedication to the empire win him grudging respect. Furumaru on the other hand they much more openly embrace. The Voice speaks compassionately about the need for these things in this time of dread threat, but understands their reservations. His knowledge of the Tao humbles even the most faithful of the Phoenix, and his good humor puts even the Lion at ease.

So it is with more than mere shock they felt when, on the fields before Kyuden Ashinagabachi, six of the Voice's students opened Black Scrolls and the monk they had all come to know transformed into the mighty Fu Leng. His last mortal words to them were "i have enjoyed my time among you. i am surprised to find i hesitate." But he did not shirk from the task before him. He embraced the power, and threw himself upon the goddess before him, even though it was immediately apparent he was outmatched.

meanwhile, Daigotsu, from the walls of the castle watched his Brother war against the Goddess and knew that it would not be enough. that a final act would be required. He turned to his Empress, and his son, and bade them farewell. he then opened the last scroll, absorbing the last of Fu Leng's power, and took his own life. At the same time, Fu Leng relinquished what was left of his powers. Daigotsu descended into Jigoku, and seized the realm, usurping the power from Kali Ma. He returned, once emperor, and now Dark Lord of Jigoku. He makes much the same deal as before. He cannot control the Oni, but he changes the taint. Jigoku, he says, is now in balance with the heavens. as long as his line sits upon the throne, and Fu Leng, who gave his divine life to save Rokugan, is venerated, Daigotsu will restrain Jigoku's taint. The oni will always need controlling, so the crab will still have their duty to perform, and there will still be those who take the taint, and they will go to the spider, who still have the mission Daigotsu gave them, for there are other threats in the world.

Rokugan expands into the colonies per canon, but this time Shahai remains alive, as Empress, and Kanpeki (who takes a new name as his gempukku and grow up to be a Shugenja thankyouverymuch) is the heir to the throne. The spider have two mandates: in the aftermath of the war they supplement the imperial military forces with their untainted elements. The tainted ones remain in the spider holdings in the shinomen and are held in reserve for when things get truly awful and the empire needs to use every method available. they alone in the empire have no restrictions upon what they can study. the only requirement is that they be tainted, so that daigotsu can keep an eye on them. he will tolerate no sedition against his line.

During the early days of his Reign, Daigotsu began to teach the Shourido, and following his Ascension, the monks of the Spider Clan began teaching the Dark Tao and venerating the Dark Fortunes that Shahai declared her husband had created. These were... not immediately popular with everyone, not as popular as shourido at least. Fu Leng, surprisingly, thanks to his sacrifice and his time as Furumaru, earned the Dark Tao a little bit of interest but the Dark Fortunes, even with Daigotsu's blessing, were not popular.

Five years after the Destroyer War there was a civil war, called the Marigold War. Traditionalist elements of many of the clans (only the unicorn and mantis remained completely loyal the Daigotsu throne. the dragon did not join the throne, but did not participate either) rose up, led by a triumvirate of the Champions of the Lion, Crab and Phoenix clans. The consecration of Dark Fortunes, on top of a former bloodspeaker on the throne, was too much. The crab and lion joined for obvious reasons, and led the other clans into war. The war was short, but catastrophic. None of the clans had recovered sufficiently from the destroyer war in a mere five years, and they underestimated the forces that the spider had stored up on the shinomen. the empress unleashed the spider against the rebellion forces and within four month the war had ended. the loses on both sides were terrible, but Shahai remained on the throne. For their rebellion, the three ringleader clans lost their champions, and were forced to submit to letting Shahai select their new ones. The other clans agreed to restitution deals designed to rebuild rokugan while keeping everyone too poor to start trouble.

---

that gets us to about 20odd years before the current timeline. still working, but wanted to submit so i don't lose what i got.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:10 pm 
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so time passes. Kanpeki undergoes his gempuku and takes the name Daigotsu Herumoru. On that day he puts on a mask, in honor of his father's tradition. it is horned, but it bears the crest of the hantei on its brow between the horns. On his 24th birthday, his mother abdicates, and he becomes Daigotsu II, Onyx Emperor of Rokugan. He is known as a devout and earnest young man, who spends a great deal of time at the temple speaking to his father, praying to his uncle, but also praying to the other Kami. he gains the respect of his people through his sincere devotion to the entire pantheon of the heavens, from the brightness of tengoku to the darkness of his father's hells.

Under his guidance, the rebuilds the pure elements of the spider, including a courtier family, the Susumu. Though he retains use of the imperial families, the Susumu becomes his personal information gathering apparatus around the empire. Very quietly, he also builds up the tainted elements of the spider, in case the clans attempt another coup.

The emperor himself is a shugenja quite as powerful as his parents, though he conceals it. he believes that people will fear that he will go down the corrupted path of his parents if people know that he is a shugenja, so he conceals his abilities, but privately he refines them regularly. for his gemukku, he used a blade, which he is perfectly adept with, having trained extensively under a one of the spider clan's foremost duelist's, Shimekiri.

Four years after he takes the throne, Shahai leaves Otosan Uchi and goes alone into the shadowlands. She returns to the Temple of the Ninth Kami, now a remote religious retreat for tainted spider. there she takes the taint, then her life, so she can return to her love. Daigotsu II announces, at the next new year, a new Dark Fortune: Shahai, Dark Fortune of Blood, further tying the throne of rokugan to jigoku, giving phoenix purist fits.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:14 pm 
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at this point i'd either time jump to Daigotsu XII or some such, start another civil war, or bring in another extra-rokugany villain. which is kinda lame. thats like kali-ma 2.0. but once you get jigoku playing nice, you gotta look externally. and i think that the same ol rokugan vs jigoku fight is pretty old. kali ma was just jigoku with extra arms. having a real, honest to god threat from outside would be cool. i'd go burning sands if it were me.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:12 am 
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If you guys are gonna roll with one gigantic love letter to Daigotsu the Plot Tumor, I'm definitely not going to be involved.


Not a threat (my involvement is hardly an unalloyed positive), just a statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:24 am 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
If you guys are gonna roll with one gigantic love letter to Daigotsu the Plot Tumor, I'm definitely not going to be involved.


Not a threat (my involvement is hardly an unalloyed positive), just a statement.


you've added literally nothing here. youve shot down every single thing in this thread. the whole point is a setting in which the result is an onyx empire, a notion which by its very premise is apparently fundamentally contrary to what you're interested in. so i mean, not ot be rude, but why continue come back and say "no, this doesn't work for me"?

that said, this isn't a love letter to daigotsu unless you consider the baseline plot to be. i've changed essentially one major plot point, and spun it out from there. furthermore, and probably unsurprisingly, i reject your tired "plot tumor" assertion. daigotsu is one of the few characters l5r has that actually has a real personality. for that he gets A TON OF SHIT. i don't get that. as for plot tumor, well, he's the villain. he's got 8x the work to do compared to the clans. deal with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:29 am 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
youve shot down every single thing in this thread


Incorrect.

You appear to mistake "let's hammer this sucker into working shape "with I hate it from top to bottom."

I mean, did you miss the bits where I said, "or you could just blow the Phoenix up, since this story isn't about them and they'd stick in the plot's craw?"

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:41 am 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
daigotsu cielago wrote:
youve shot down every single thing in this thread


Incorrect.

You appear to mistake "let's hammer this sucker into working shape "with I hate it from top to bottom."

I mean, did you miss the bits where I said, "or you could just blow the Phoenix up, since this story isn't about them and they'd stick in the plot's craw?"


as it happens, no. its why they, along with a few others, were the principals in starting a civil war against the new daigotsu dynasty. iirc there nearly was one just for making the spider a clan.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:51 am 
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I recall the reaction being a bunch of kanshi but everybody more or less accepting it because Iweko.

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:53 am 
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i coulda sworn there was a story right after, before the lion all went choppity chop, where the crab at least talked about how they wouldn't stand for it blah blah blah

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:58 am 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
i coulda sworn there was a story right after, before the lion all went choppity chop, where the crab at least talked about how they wouldn't stand for it blah blah blah


Reiha made noises about it and Benjiro said, "nah, let's not."

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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:04 am 
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You have misunderstood us honorable Phoenix friend
First, L5R is about the BIG names, all the story, all the time
Every Clan have their names, if you ask somebody to name a personality, they will say (beside the Thunders of curse):
The Phoenix? Aikune + the Wish or Tsukune
Crane? Kurohito, Sekawa
Scorpion? Paneki, Sunetra
Lion? Nimuro/Tamago, Kage
Unicorn? Gaheris, Chagatai, Shono
Dragon? Hoshi, Satsu, and Mitsu of curse
Crab? Kisada, Kuon
Mantis? Yoritomo... and thats all , maybe Kumiko and Kitao
The Shadowlands? The Maw, Kyoso, Yori, Shahai, Iuchiban and co., and Daigotsu (not to mention Yunzo, but he is kind of our Thunder)
With a guest star, the Shadow Dragon
Even the Ratlings had a big name, Te'ti'kir, and Ka'nok'tichek (god i hope i remeber their name correctly)
The Spiders? We have Daigotsu and Katsu (maybe Kanpeki, but to be honest, Endo or Yurishi are both good)
So, L5R is about big names - whom had their fair share of plot and plot armour! - and the bigest name is - face it - Daigotsu!

Second, what we trying to do here is to make an alternate timeline, where the Spider Clan has WON, but not in that stupid and horrible way, what AEG forced on to us. Tainted kanpeki, jigoku unleashed... and so on
We are not trying to make everyone happy with a setting, where everything is love and peace, and Jade... (that would be easy, Kanpeki + Maika--> Emperor Kanpeki. Daigotsu died form old age with Shahai )
No
A Dark Empire (or at least darker...)
So, since this is an alternate setting, where the Spiders won (with politics, things... etc) it is natural, our bigest hero, the bigest name, Daigotsu is common sight. Please accept this.
We are trying to hammer out the problems... this is why i proposed the Spiders have won the Torunament, since a Tengoku blessed Daigotsu/Kanpeki is the best solution to scilence all the naysayers...
But of course there are other ways 8-)
But one thing will be common all in our Alternate setting ideas for a Dark Empire.. .they will revolve around Daigotsu, Fu Leng and Kanpeki (and more or less, the Taint) :smoke:


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 Post subject: Re: Onyx Empire - Alternate Setting
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:15 am 
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I agree with Goju. Daigotsu is a big part of our identity. I don't agree this would make the better timeline, however. It's a cool setting idea worth exploring nonetheless


I invite you all to read this other thread with alternate diverging points for the onyx empire, comment, propose new ones and explore the possibilities if this doesn"t interest you.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1827

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