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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:58 pm 
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We have a new Emperor, but we don't know yet who it is until AEG announces him before the kotei season, which will begin on Saturday.


Megumi wrote:
Okay, an update. The (available) GMs spent time today in a fairly lengthy Skype call, and have essentially completed the scoring for WC4. Now, a couple of points:

-we finally decided to include Honor in the scoring. As several of you pointed out, if we were going to exclude Honor, we should have said so much earlier on, and we didn't. I realize that some of you DID advocate for discounting Honor early on, but at that point, I wasn't willing to do so, because I wasn't convinced the distortion on the Honor Table in the Core Book was as serious an issue as some worried it might be. I admittedly did start to waver there at the end, but the fact that we were potentially going to change things so late in the game just didn't seem reasonable. Moreover, as it turned out, the high versus low Honor issue did, indeed, turn out to be a virtual non-issue. In fact, we were somewhat surprised by how MUCH of an issue it turned out to not be. We are going to publish the results, including some rather complex and detailed alternative scenarios developed by the esteemed Saibankan...but not just yet. That's because...

-...we're not going to reveal the details of the scoring until an official announcement is made regarding who the Heir will actually be. AEG will be revealing the identity of the Heir Apparent this coming week i.e. prior to the first Kotei, which occurs next weekend. Once that is announced, we'll publish the details of the scoring from WC4. We will be absolutely as transparent as we can possibly be, but NOT until the Heir is revealed.

What I WILL say, at this point, is that you guys, and the Clans you represent, achieved some truly remarkable outcomes in WC4. The Heir aside, every clan has earned some significant story potential going forward. I say "potential" because it's not my place to commit the Story Team to anything; that said, though, the you've given the Story Team lots to work with, and I'm pretty confident you'll be seeing things happening in the story in the future that you'll be able to point at and say, hey, that came RIGHT out of Winter Court. The fact that we've had two members of the Story Team--Tenjin and Shi-Tien Yen-Wang--directly involved in the event ensures that there have been Story Team eyes directly on the event, and in my role as part of AEG's L5R Team, I'll be certain to watch for opportunities to use Winter Court 4 stuff whenever we can.

So, watch out in the coming week for the announcement of the Heir, after which we'll be publishing the scoring.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:02 pm 
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Bodhi BloodWave wrote:
If the news that Jigoku released its grip on Saiga becomes pubic knowledge its going to cause some major ruckus with some clans i think


That praying to Daigotsu (and/or the Dark Fortunes) can safe a damned soul might turn some necks. But who would be willing to make a Faustian deal with Daigotsu and pay the prize? I wouldn't think that many.

Besides, other Fortunes can also remove the Taint and save a soul from Jigoku. Emma-O and the Lords of Death did so in the past; they just don't advertise it.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:12 pm 
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i am currently rather scared for asina ....

tsubaki has to kill/taint someone daigotsu never said how to do that ...

and asina nd tsubaki may have had..... ;) http://wintercourt.l5r.com/viewtopic.php?f=248&t=12273

so slightly scared on that part... .and what happens if people find out...

also love the gms i cant wait to find out who won and the prizes ...


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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:04 pm 
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And a confirmation. http://wintercourt.l5r.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p265696

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:28 pm 
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Audax wrote:
Here is a Crab, Phoenix and Imperials treaty that includes the Master of Fire marrying Hida Kozan and joining the Hida Family. It is my understanding that this treaty was initiated by a Story Team request, at least the marriage part, so they are surely cooking something interesting up.


Actually, the marriage was mooted by Izuna's player, but the Story Team took a pronounced interest in it.

Quote:
The downside is that there will be yet another change to the Elemental Council, and it seems that Koiso was one fan favourites of the Phoenix players. But her card's artwork and maybe her card's mechanics might have more to do with it than story appearances. Gunichi will know and maybe can correct me, if I'm wrong.


Koiso is of...mixed popularity. Same with most of the Council, really.

And her sensei card is roundly despised, so...

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:39 pm 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
Actually, the marriage was mooted by Izuna's player, but the Story Team took a pronounced interest in it.


Odd, it was my impression that it was a GM idea to have Kozan marry into the Phoenix, which means someone of high-enough rank, actually. Since the GMs also play Izuna's superiors, I would have thought that it went through ICly, especially after three nakado, including the WC's Imperial one, an NPC, had signed it. But it's not the oddest thing that has happened in WC4 involving NPCs.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:45 pm 
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Just because the GMs are playing the NPCs does not mean that all NPCs are on the same page. For example a number of the NPCs were played by volunteers who weren't GMing in any other capacity, and their job was to play the characters they were given, not to accomplish overall game goals.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:50 pm 
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Bayushi Akai wrote:
Just because the GMs are playing the NPCs does not mean that all NPCs are on the same page. For example a number of the NPCs were played by volunteers who weren't GMing in any other capacity, and their job was to play the characters they were given, not to accomplish overall game goals.


I see. In this case my idea of what a GM-driven plot was at Winter Court was, at least partly, inaccurate. Such a high-profile wedding would have been interesting, though. But with the Princess' marriage and the new Heichi daimyo's, it could have been too many of a rare event happening all at once.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:11 pm 
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Quick, Tsubaki, arrange for a Moto advisor to your Governess' court. You might need an expert on the spirit realms and curses. ~Links~

Unless you rather want one of the rare Gyushi smiths, or a Chuda. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:33 pm 
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There is also a shadowspawn at Winter Court, and not one of the nice ones who are infiltrating other clans for the good of the Spider. ;) I guess it takes many plots to keep 100+ players busy. Kolat, incarnations of Fortunes, Oni, and now shadowspawn. That's head-spinningly much for 30 days in just one city.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:59 pm 
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It is, but I believe it's also a sign that things in general are starting to unravel in the Empire. One of the big plot points at the start of the game was that the Ningen-Do is becoming more and more distant to the Celestial Heavens and that probably ties into the massive storyline changes coming in Onyx edition.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:03 pm 
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Audax wrote:
Shiba Gunichi wrote:
Actually, the marriage was mooted by Izuna's player, but the Story Team took a pronounced interest in it.


Odd, it was my impression that it was a GM idea to have Kozan marry into the Phoenix, which means someone of high-enough rank, actually. Since the GMs also play Izuna's superiors, I would have thought that it went through ICly, especially after three nakado, including the WC's Imperial one, an NPC, had signed it. But it's not the oddest thing that has happened in WC4 involving NPCs.


There was a bit of a tangle on the details of the marriage arrangement.

As of right now, IC, it's gonna be Hida Koiso, not Isawa Kozan.

But there's a reason I left the terms vague in the Phoenix/Crab treaty... there was a LOT of ST data received second and third hand during that whole deal.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:28 pm 
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Audax wrote:
Quick, Tsubaki, arrange for a Moto advisor to your Governess' court. You might need an expert on the spirit realms and curses. ~Links~

Unless you rather want one of the rare Gyushi smiths, or a Chuda. ;)


Done. I've only recently given thought to my court, which will at the least be filled with Gyushi smiths.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:00 pm 
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How someone's lack of understanding of the setting can affect you for a week is something I'll never know, but don't feel terribly about missing out on the Miaka lottery. I feel like the Crane suitor got the short end of the stick since his meeting thread never even got resolved past the point where the other top contenders got.

Regarding the ronin, I have a unique solution: give him a job. One where a man's soul is at stake...

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:24 pm 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
How someone's lack of understanding of the setting can affect you for a week is something I'll never know, but don't feel terribly about missing out on the Miaka lottery.


It gave me an anxiety attack and made me question my own understanding of the setting. What I had intended to be an attempt to trigger the first duel of the court (first blood is what I expected) instead became a "Did I just kill myself?" moment. I managed to recover thanks to all the support I received from the various players (not just Spider. Both Crab and Lion players were also supportive of me) and the GMs (Emma-O, our AGM, was the one who managed to get everything straightened out).

Quote:
I feel like the Crane suitor got the short end of the stick since his meeting thread never even got resolved past the point where the other top contenders got.

Naishi spent a bunch of points to get Nishikawa as an Ally and we didn't get much out of that either. It would have been cool if they had chosen to resolve the Spider Imperial Nakodo prize that we still have unresolved. Could you imagine how different things would be?


Last edited by Daigotsu Atsushi on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:45 pm 
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Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:
kakita_shiro wrote:
How someone's lack of understanding of the setting can affect you for a week is something I'll never know, but don't feel terribly about missing out on the Miaka lottery.


It gave me an anxiety attack and made me question my own understanding of the setting. What I had intended to be an attempt to trigger the first duel of the court (first blood is what I expected) instead became a "Did I just kill myself?" moment. I managed to recover thanks to all the support I received from the various players (no just Spider. Both Crab and Lion players were supportive of me) and the GMs (Emma-O, our AGM, was the one who managed to get everything straitened out).
[/quote]

Yeah, the Tortoise clearly stepped out of line in a specific event where the "Im drunk!" response is allowed. Its amazing the GMs didn't just shut him down completely. But yeah, he played a great villain and nothing made me cheer more then watching you end him for good. In fact it turns out your better at kill duels anyway so it all worked out for you.

Pity the shiba trained duelist went down with him but hey, the Tortoise decided to harm his clan, his call.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:58 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
How someone's lack of understanding of the setting can affect you for a week is something I'll never know, but don't feel terribly about missing out on the Miaka lottery. I feel like the Crane suitor got the short end of the stick since his meeting thread never even got resolved past the point where the other top contenders got.

Regarding the ronin, I have a unique solution: give him a job. One where a man's soul is at stake...


oooh ?? tell me more ?? he didnt bite the order of the spider bait... need more ammo ...


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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:11 am 
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Atsushi and Geiko talk about magistrates and our previous WC2 and WC3 duelists names pop up.


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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:35 am 
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DukeMelvin wrote:
oooh ?? tell me more ?? he didnt bite the order of the spider bait... need more ammo ...


I think it boils down to whether the player wants it to happen for the character or not. Because the endorsement of a family daimyo, who is also the daughter of a god, and the support of a grandmaster (kind of a family daimyo) should quiet any worries.

But if you need need some IC ammo, because Ishiki wants to hear some arguments:

• Ishiki, ronin or not, has proven his worth to the Spider Clan by winning a Shourido competition that is endorsed by the Regent and the Imperial Families as hosts of the Winter Court. So it is quite a big deal.
• Children will look up to him, because he wields a famous Gyushi blade (famous among the Spider, at least).
• As for him being a traitor; the Dragon take no issue with the Spider worshipping the Dragon traitor Agasha Kyoso. Compared to what she did, Ishiki's treason is small.
• Former Kitsuki daimyo, Empress Iweko, invited (Mirumoto) Taishuu, a tainted traitor to the Dragon into her court, to serve as an ambassador to the Spider Clan. His treason (I think it was subordination) was motivated by a sense of duty, to serve the Dragon Clan, though.
• The Spider take in all kind of ronin and outcasts, surely Dragon among them (just don't mention Kokujin's Order *g*), without this straining the relationship with the Dragon

The important thing is that one year of service is something completely different than swearing fealty. And with all the gestures of friendship between Dragon and Spider this Winter Court, allowing an outcast a way to redemption doesn't sound like the worst.

Another impromptu idea: If he dislikes working among the Spider, even if secretly. If Asina will have an estate with her husband in Crane lands, she could ask that shrines, maybe even a small temple, be built in honour of dead heroes: Mirumoto Miroken, Toku Saiga and Susumu Naishi (maybe even throw in the unnamed Spider Fortune who got deified during Iweko's 10th coronation anniversary). Ishiki would help bless and maintain the shrines or temple (for a year). Of course, the travelling sohei of the Spider would see to it that there will be pilgrims. If there also happens to be built a small dojo with a sohei sensei, Ishiki could help Spider children who come there and learn of Shourido and the ways of the kami. Or other clans' children, too.

Granted, this impromptu idea like shooting a mosquito with a canon, and you might want to discuss any of this within your non-public embassy threads, but if Ishiki's player wants this to happen, there should be ways. Getting Kuroko's approval looks like the hardest part, and this is already done.

If everything fails, remind him that it cost you favours to get Kuroko's approval for this and that your good name is on the line. But you would have to decide if this is something Asina would do. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:51 am 
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Won't go into full detail here... not until after WC is done. But the ronin has way more problems in his future than you listed. Comparing that the Dragon allow Spider to venerate Kyoso.... is nothing at all even closely related to this situation. Honestly, I am unsure why every other clan seemed to fall all over him after he went ronin. In setting, all should have shunned him. Many should have insulted him. And a few should have tried to kill him.

Ronin are unworthy scum. And we aren't just talking a ronin by chance, but a coward who refused to purge his dishonor, and his clans dishonor, and save his own hide. Now, i know there is more to it than that for his character, but none of that matters. To the rest of the empire, he is an abject failure, and the worst example of what a samurai should be/do.

So the love fest to court him afterward was really REALLY awkward to me.


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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:58 am 
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i3ullseye wrote:
So the love fest to court him afterward was really REALLY awkward to me.


In fairness, Taisho was just trying to give an old friend a chance at an honorable death. His yoriki... well. They don't usually last long.

TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
Yeah, the Tortoise clearly stepped out of line in a specific event where the "Im drunk!" response is allowed. Its amazing the GMs didn't just shut him down completely.


Same event saw an idle exchange between the Phoenix and Lion delegation heads cause the Crane to think we were enemies all of a sudden, and never seek to clarify until far too late. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:04 am 
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Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:


Great idea. I'm not sure how old Sahara is, but he is one of the most high-profile Spider character, as a former member of the Council of the Spider. As a former Emerald Magistrate and assistent to Shosuro Jimen, and as a former Empress' Guard, his name could open many doors.

The characters I thought of with regards to this new magistrate group are tainted:

• Daigotsu Shimekiri, a former uruwashii, the very first appointed under Iweko, who revived this tradition again.
• Daigotsu Eiya, a mute, but effective killing machine, who retrieved the Dark Covenant of Fire for Daigotsu and, disguised as a ronin, participated at the Emerald Championship.
• Taishuu, a Dragon who accepted the Taint out of duty to his clan and who became the ambassador to the Shadowlands (and later to the Spider Clan at Iweko's Court)

But my favourite would be:

• Katsu, an immortal khadi, whose heart Daigotsu possessed. He is the son of the slain Dark Oracle of Air, Soshi Jomyako, and - unbeknownst to him - the uncle to Isawa Mizuhiko, who hunted the Dark Oracles. He has shown compassion to the Tainted and Lost in the past, but also fought and ended them when needed.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:09 am 
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i3ullseye wrote:
So the love fest to court him afterward was really REALLY awkward to me.


To me, at least from a Spider perspective, the only thing that makes him interesting is that he is a shugenja. We only have a handful of non-Chuda shugenja and even if one of them is honourless scum, he can still be a tool. Most early Spider were either outcast who didn't want to commit sepukku or ronin, after all. Even after the Gyushi will grow to several dozen members, I don't think the Spider can be picky about shugenja. And not about one who won our own Shourido event and now wields our Gyushi blade.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:32 am 
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I might have been the actual start of trying to court Ishiki after his outburst in Court. Naishi did send a letter to the head of the Dragon, asking for Souran to be on the short list for marriage into the Gyushi family. Had Naishi not been vanished, she would have worked with Susumu Kuroko to get Suzume Shindo named as the betrothed of Daigotsu Katashi.

This is because Naishi felt that most hatred of the Spider Clan came from a lack of perspective. Other than the Crab Clan, who actually hate us for legitimate reasons, most samurai who hate the Spider due so because they do not understand the Spider. And what better conquest for the Spider Clan through marriage than to take their enemies, and make them the parents of future Spider?

Though, the Shindo plan was a little bit worse. Shindo spread the rumor which was two steps shy of blatant slander against the Spider Clan. Putting her in the position where Susumu Kuroko ordered the head of the Crane Delegation to name her the betrothed of Daigotsu Katashi would probably have led to her committing seppuku, and angering the Crab Clan she was betrothed to further.

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 Post subject: Re: [DT] Winter Court IV Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:44 am 
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Let me clear some confusion regarding the Saiga plot.

In a Spider embassy thread, Saiga sworn fealty towards the Spider after the show of unity. He was about to go ronin and go on a quest to become a member of the clan, however Susumu Kuroko asked Saiga for a show of his worth this Winter Court, she would then talk to the daimyo of the Monkey clan asking for permission.

Saiga made the end of his bargain, becoming the hero of Toshi Ranbo.

All Kuroko has to do is keep her end of the bargain. The character says that she did talk to the Monkey daimyo over Naishi's funeral however that might be just fluff or nothing official.

Anyway, I don't really care/tried to get the Daigotsu stamp over Toku Saiga.
His story is about a man that was eluded in the Empire. Someone who never belonged, who was never adqueate and yet he found friends and family among the Spider because they too aren't adequate.

So it's only fitting Rokugan tries their best to accept him now that he is a hero, but the Spider know better.
They know he in the end, was just like them. A samurai the rokugan society rejected due for him not fitting in expectations.
As long the Spider knows the real Toku Saiga story, I feel the story had the perfect ending. Being a Spider isn't about wearing a fancy mon, it's about following the Spider ways despite being reviled by the Empire.

That said, I am very excited for Saiga soul's reborn. I hope he returns as a Spider bushi.

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