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 Post subject: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Sinister Citadel of the Spider

When going first:
Province Strength: 7
Gold Production: 4
Starting Family Honor: 0

Battle: Fear 3

It is a strange place to call home, in the dark where the sunlight scarcely reaches.

When going second:

Province Strength: 8
Gold Production: 4
Starting Family Honor: 0

Tireless Dynasty: If any of your provinces have been destroyed this game, turn a card in one of your provinces face-up.

Tireless Battle: Fear 3

The Spider dwell in the hidden, cursed places that other Great Clans do not covet. It gives them the privacy their endeavors require.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:20 pm 
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Wow, I really like this box. Especially the art.

The Tireless Dynasty ability will really help us develop when going second if people get out in front of us. A Fear 3 is nice, bowing a 3f peep or follower every battle is pretty good. Tireless when going second? I'll take it. 8 PS is also nice against most decks.

Obviously, the big problem here is that it does nothing to entering play honor losses. We have 3 uniques and 4 non-uniques that cause honor loss when coming into play, although all at manageable amounts. My instinct is to think that with some of the cards we want to play fate side having honor loss too, that we might get a sensei that reduces or negates those honor losses, especially as the presumable Susumu deck will not need it. Even if it just did it for Shadowlands cards that would really help. It looks like most of our new guys will not cause much in the way of honor loss.

But, if we don't get some kind of way to manage that, some guys (like Arakan XP) will be virtually unplayable. It helps that we don't have to manage honor losses as closely because of dash Honor Requirements, but if we don't get some kind of way to deal with honor losses for playing our own guys we can look forward to another arc of dishonor decks handing us our asses, especially if they can punish Shadowlands.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:17 am 
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Br'nn
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As my excitement prior to its reveal showed, I really like this box. I think they really got the benefit for almost always going second right and a battle action that is more than just a force pump or movement ability and actually hits an opposing card is nothing to sneeze at. It will mean that low force units will have to reconsider that initial attack, because they know that one of the bodies is sitting down.

And if you don't think you can stop them (and as I've been told countless times by Randy, you should get out of the way of the first attack all the time anyways), then you don't lose your tempo and can continue to build even with the province gone. Simple, elegant, and solves so many issues that Spider has with always going second.

I realize that the no honour loss protection will rub some the wrong way, given we do have some honour losses on a couple of guys, but the reality is that to be a Great Clan, we have to play by the rules now. We've seen that the Empire is well aware of our taintedness and only a very few legacy Shadowlands guys have an honour loss and the rest are either Fallen (and every clan has those with honour losses) or Goju Ninja (which the Empire doesn't know we party with so the honour losses are explained). We'll obviously have to be careful in our personality selection, but the losses should be manageable.

I am really excited for this box. I've really enjoyed playing with it and I think you all will, too. :D

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:20 am 
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I like it.

Sure the honor loss thing might be an issue, but right now I see a stronghold with A. a proactive battle action, B. a tempo regulating ability, and C. the second highest province strength in the game. (And we'll never see the first).

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:22 am 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
We'll obviously have to be careful in our personality selection, but the losses should be manageable.


My only concern is that those losses are not manageable against dishonor; and that no one else has guys who come into play and make another decktype's victory condition more achievable. If that is the case, then we end up behind the curve on personalities we can field, as dishonor will already be a shaky thing for us.

I love the rest of it. I like the box a whole lot, and I don't expect immunity to honor loss - but a reduction would help. In between a keyword that can be punished by other cards and helping dishonor along, we have some disadvantages i hope will be addressed in the rest of the previews.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:28 am 
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THAT ART MAN! TRULY THE DWELLING OF THE SON OF DARKNESS! 8-)

As for abilities....

8 Strength, great!

Tireless Dynasty is actually beyond awesome... pity it only works if the enemy take a province... So against honor and dishonor its pointless. But the ability to keep province momentum against military is great. It is also a great synergy with the up and coming Susumu honor where provinces dying will happen and we need to keep momentum. Daigotsu Susaiken has been in every deck I've ever built so far and its nice to see the ability follow me into Ivory.

Fear 3..................... I'm not disappointed.
I understand the ideas with fear, that it leaves the opponent down and out, waiting for us to roll them over for the honor and what have you, if we kill then before combat res then we don't gain the honor. But my concern in military games is how often are we really going to find 3 force dudes that will matter overall? Alot of them seem tobe showing up in crab but they all bump to 4 with the box. Still I cant argue with the theme. Bow em and command and conquer all over the place! :peasant:

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:29 am 
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There's been a number of dishonor cards that make targets lose honor equal to their starting honor, which means they do nothing to us. That said, hopefully dishonor isn't an unwinnable matchup.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:33 am 
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Salticidae wrote:
There's been a number of dishonor cards that make targets lose honor equal to their starting honor, which means they do nothing to us. That said, hopefully dishonor isn't an unwinnable matchup.


Right. Or equal to their personal honor. That's also why I am reserving my final judgment to seeing the whole set before I decide how big of an issue I think it will be.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:36 am 
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Realistically, though, who are we running? Gyoken XP seems a lock, because he's pretty solid, but then you have Arakan, who is really only good if you are running Followers. If you aren't, you can leave him out. You have Onchi XP and while she's nice, 4F for 9 isn't outstanding, even in Ivory. The Goju from Aftermath is nice, but again, essential? Maybe to help fuel the Planted Evidence and for his get out of dodge ability, but maybe he's only a 2-of. Daigotsu Ryuko is really the only other person with an honour loss that I really want to have, and as Fallen, she's got the same issue as other solid Fallen guys in other clans.

Obviously, we have to see where dishonour sits to start the arc, and we might have to adapt depending on that, but there is room to make some choices while deckbuilding to work around them. Whereas we used to have 3 and 4 honour loss hits like Oni have, we only get 1s and 2s now, so its more manageable.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:39 am 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
Fear 3..................... I'm not disappointed.
I understand the ideas with fear, that it leaves the opponent down and out, waiting for us to roll them over for the honor and what have you, if we kill then before combat res then we don't gain the honor. But my concern in military games is how often are we really going to find 3 force dudes that will matter overall? Alot of them seem tobe showing up in crab but they all bump to 4 with the box. Still I cant argue with the theme. Bow em and command and conquer all over the place! :peasant:


There are a lot of 2 and 3F guys in Ivory that are in military decks. Obviously, getting your Force up or protecting guys with Followers will be a useful thing to do, but don't forget that there are also a bunch of force-jab actions out there, too. You shouldn't have a ton of trouble finding useful targets for the box ability.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:43 am 
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It's worth noting that if we get any Susumu with combat-relevant abilities, or cards like M'rika EXP that have personal honor, even our military decks will be able to proclaim a few times per game. Depending on the number of honor-loss guys you're running, that might be more than sufficient.

That said, a Susaiken Sensei that negates or reduces honor loses would be much appreciated. My suspicion after seeing Kanpeki is that any Sensei that helps with honor loss will be the latter, but who knows.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:55 am 
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Spider has some of the best art, hands down, no argument accepted, it's a huge reason I play Spider. No complaints with any of the previewed art, especially not this here awesome stronghold.

I love its going second side, for reals. I can't tell you how many times I found it soo annoying that when I wanted to use my stronghold (the conqueror ones) but couldn't because it was bowed. A ton of the strongholds in EE were tireless, but the one theme's stronghold, that was literally about being rampaging conquistadores who don't stop for nobody, wasn't? Super gank. I welcome our tireless stronghold with open arms.

The cycling is awesome, it's great for tempo, and amazingly thematic. I've always loved Spider's "I'm just gonna buy all the things," thing we have going on. We have pretty strong gold, and pretty well costed guys; being able to buy just one more dynasty card than the other person can often help tons. I hope that statement isn't said too early for IE though.

Nothing no one has really said, but I thought I'd put my flavor up for viewing. Our stronghold is cool as hell and everyone should know it.

P.S. - I'm a little concerned about the honor stuff and what not, but I can't pin it to words because it's too early to comment for me. I think we need to see more to really figure out how honor/dishonor themes and matchups will work for us. Patience, friends.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:58 am 
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No honor loss protection is interesting...

As someone who sat out most of EE, this box does make me hopeful. However, I do feel the box is a little weak when going first, and Spider vs. Spider games will be heavily favored towards the player who goes second. Fear 3 doesn't seem stellar at first glance, but that could just be because I am used to EE force values. I was hoping for higher numerical values on fear abilities in order to justify them over ranged/melee attacks, but oh well.

We suspect that we are getting a Susumu sensei first as they are the only unique win condition we have, thus they need the sensei to be competitively playable. However, all of our personalities previewed today are Samurai, so I wonder if Monks and Ninja are making it into IE. If so, I assume the Goju/Ninube Sensei (Shadow Dragon?) will have honor loss protection for ninja we own, thus reflecting their secretive nature. I assume scorpion are getting a ninja sensei from the start (ninja are just too popular not to be played), thus I am anxious to see if they get any built in honor protection.


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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:24 am 
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I like this a lot and dat picture
A bit disapointed about the honour loss thing hopefully theres a sensei to cover that


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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:33 am 
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I just noticed what looks like a giant spider in the branches of the going second side. If we could get some Kumo - oooohh weee I would be stoked.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:34 am 
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Shingen wrote:
I just noticed what looks like a giant spider in the branches of the going second side. If we could get some Kumo - oooohh weee I would be stoked.

There's two of them in that art.

The going-second side is definitely the superior art for this card, which is fortunate considering how often we'll be going second.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:35 am 
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Shingen wrote:
I just noticed what looks like a giant spider in the branches of the going second side. If we could get some Kumo - oooohh weee I would be stoked.

Oh there's more than one. A playset by my count.


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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:13 am 
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All I can say is, it would really suck if you're in a mirror match and you went first. :peasant:

Now, for the Senseis!!! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:17 am 
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Oni no El wrote:
All I can say is, it would really suck if you're in a mirror match and you went first. :peasant:

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised the going-first side is so...bad. You'd think this would be an opportunity to, say, pull a Lion and give it some better stats since we'll usually only go second to another Spider player, but I guess not.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:19 am 
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True. Would've been okay if the box ability was still tireless even if we go first.




BUT, NO! :poof:

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:55 am 
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Stronghold action.

Battle: Drag target opponent to tea on your front lawn.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:58 am 
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Looks good.

I dunno if it looks, "Gunichi's second Clan in Ivory will be Spider" good, but it's way better than a poke in the eye with a stick.

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:52 am 
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I was kinda hoping any fear effect on the stronghold would be at least 4, but I guess I can accept 3. The artwork is perfect, even on the front side (I imagine that is the side that represents the day without fog, basically imagine the haunted house during a common summer day. Nothing scary about that, but wait till night fall). The Dynasty action is helpful, lets us keep tempo, and will certainly see use. My only concern is, with such a seemingly weak front side, that the Susumu sensei which I highly suspect will be the first revealed for us, will give us starting honor, which might cause the deck's downfall. I never want to play that front side. Going first doesn't feel worth it to me.


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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:20 am 
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First, the battle action. Fear 3 will hit the VAST majority of the Personalities in Ivory right now, which is GREAT. Tireless on the backside is just even better.

The mini-Spider's Lair ability is BEYOND handy against Military, however, I'm concerned that once again, it, like Conqueror, does NOTHING against the Honor/Dishonor matchup.

Now, the real meat of things is that lack of honor loss protection. And yes, while Braun has the good point that, really, other than Ninjas (and they dang well better have an honor loss protection Sensei if every one of them is going to cause honor loss), there's only a couple of folk we'll want to run who cause an honor loss, that had really better remain the case for future Spider Personalities. We should not be penalized for running Spider Personalities anymore than say, the Crane should be penalized for running Crane Personalities (unless of course they're Fallen, and the two major Spider we do want to play are both Fallen).

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 Post subject: Re: [IE] Stronghold: Sinister Citadel of the Spider
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 am 
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Oh I love this box! The built-in fear is going to be great, I just think that people are underestimating how good Fear is going to be in Ivory because they're still thinking about things from an EE standpoint.

Also, as an older player that fact that Fear can now target personalities makes me think it is going to be pretty great.

And the Tireless Dynasty ability looks to be very nice! Is it just me or are we the only clan stronghold that has two abilities?

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