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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:24 am 
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Goju wrote:
So, just to be clear... the Scorpions (and everybody who can bring her out, we know, there are... ways to do it) got a - HR, 6GC Kachiko, who can decimate the Spider decks (ya know, Shadowland keyword - and our new theme is SL in whole Onyx, and historically abysmall chi on our personalities) nearly two whole arcs...
...and the Spiders got.... promises/nothing
Even the Mantis got Yoritomo (the clan who is not a clan with stronghold in Onyx...)
Yeaaaaaah... right
Seems fair (as usual) :evil:

(The Naga? Don't know... they played a major roll in the CW but at this point i don't even care)

Goju Facemurder. Or Goju Spider-Facemurder (using a Battle action). You guys make it sound like she's some insurmountable problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:25 am 
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Art wise, and flavor wise this set is awesome.

But as a spider player this set is a massive kick in the teeth after an already rough couple of weeks.

Obviously the intention is that Spider gets Kanpeki, but he is abysmally bad when these enter the environment. On top if that, we gave up a rare slot of Thunderous acclaim for Kanpeki, these guys are in a new set... These clans lost nothing to get their thunder. The crane just get a new Hotori, they didn't have to sacrifice a rare slot it's just handed to them. I see that spider rare slot as something that could have mattered.

Hotori and Tadaka kill Kanpeki, the freaking villain, for LITTERALLY NO COST! Kachiko kills his army around him. Kanpeki's greatest strength wasn't the fears he gave, but his ability to be hard to kill, but these two simply erase a 15G card, one does it just because of that keyword shadowlands, you know, the one that is supposed to represent Kanpeki getting better. The shadow emperor Kanpeki is now the more survivorable Kanpeki.

kakita_shiro wrote:
Goju wrote:
So, just to be clear... the Scorpions (and everybody who can bring her out, we know, there are... ways to do it) got a - HR, 6GC Kachiko, who can decimate the Spider decks (ya know, Shadowland keyword - and our new theme is SL in whole Onyx, and historically abysmall chi on our personalities) nearly two whole arcs...
...and the Spiders got.... promises/nothing
Even the Mantis got Yoritomo (the clan who is not a clan with stronghold in Onyx...)
Yeaaaaaah... right
Seems fair (as usual) :evil:

(The Naga? Don't know... they played a major roll in the CW but at this point i don't even care)

Goju Facemurder. Or Goju Spider-Facemurder (using a Battle action). You guys make it sound like she's some insurmountable problem.


Out of scorpion she is, Kumoru needs to ambush without being sent home or her escaping, otherwise she targets Kumoru and he is dead before he can swing at her again. Shiro, you know I love my Kumo assassin, but he is not an easy answer, and if I don't have him, and a kill action on him, it's VERY bad.

Kachiko and Tadaka are devestating cards to see play that will become NPE for spider players very quickly.

So while I'm excited to play Yogo Junzo, which I will for a week or two until my friends get tired of it... These uniques will haunt us for a year or two... That is annoying.

All that evil hype we should be having due to Onyx and our story path choices is very hard to even get started when this kind of nonsense is thrown around.

Bayushi Akai wrote:
I can understand not putting a bug on Junzo, we made similar decisions with the Naga Deck. But they could have just included an extra card in the box to give Spider a Personality.


This^

Look at ALL the hype and expectations we got leading into this. I was legitamently excited! They could have made a toned down version and given us that... Or a shadowlands fate card... :evil:

This could have been an excellent opportunity to give shadowlands a much needed buff.

My playground was going to buy two, one to keep pure and one to loot. Now I have to watch as they all receive new cool toys while I sit there. Maybe I'll get the temple of destiny... Who knows.

I love the set as a collector, but man...it sucks to be spider these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:30 am 
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Shit like this is why the spider community has a very legitimate belief that the design team in general and Reese in particular, if not actively disliking spider, certainly doesn't give two shits about making them work.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:37 am 
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Sheesh, they couldn't have given you guys a Kokujin-style discount on somebody like Tsuke, Yori, Junzo...?

I get the "we didn't want the Siege deck itself to just get pillaged," but all three of the other decks are going to be gutted for their shiny shiny tournament-legal goodies... It will be entirely possible to see three decks face down Fu Leng with nary a Clan War guy to be seen- would the reverse have truly been so horrible?

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:43 am 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
Sheesh, they couldn't have given you guys a Kokujin-style discount on somebody like Tsuke, Yori, Junzo...?

I get the "we didn't want the Siege deck itself to just get pillaged," but all three of the other decks are going to be gutted for their shiny shiny tournament-legal goodies... It will be entirely possible to see three decks face down Fu Leng with nary a Clan War guy to be seen- would the reverse have truly been so horrible?


of course not. its a paper thin excuse. this isn't even like a tin-foil demon horns situations. this is so bald faced its just stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:52 am 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
It will be entirely possible to see three decks face down Fu Leng with nary a Clan War guy to be seen- would the reverse have truly been so horrible?


Thing I don't get about it is why do they care whether people use cards out of the seige deck anyway. If I buy a set of cards surely I can do what the hell I like with them. And the fact is if I want to play seige I can take that 1 (!) card out of my deck and y'know... PUT IT BACK IN THE SIEGE DECK!
As far as reasons go this one is pretty terrible. From what I've heard from a playtester I know, the real reason is they couldn't make any of the cards work as a bugged card with the way they are setup.

Given that they could have at least thrown us a bone and said we'd get an extra guy in an upcoming set instead, which I would have been perfectly fine with. I mean they did this for Scorpion when their player actually CHOSE not to get a personality along with everyone else in Coils.

Honestly the worst thing about this is the way they slow rolled it by showing all the cool stuff everyone was getting and then right at the end after the anticipation had been built (will it be Junzo, or Tsume etc), just going oh sorry players who picked the grey colored starter you don't get to play. Real dick move AEG. I'm not normally bothered by AEGs bumbling like most people are, but this one has annoyed me. I was going to buy this, but now I simply won't on principle and they've lost a sale.


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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:52 am 
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In the time it took to take a shower and get to work I came up with about 6 different solutions to Kachiko. Stop bitching about it and play the cards.

You guys can continue to bitch about not getting a Clan Wars card, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:02 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
In the time it took to take a shower and get to work I came up with about 6 different solutions to Kachiko. Stop bitching about it and play the cards.

You guys can continue to bitch about not getting a Clan Wars card, though.


my problem with Kachiko is that she's yet more shadowlands/spider hate. no matter how bad you think she is, she's better against spider. Ditto Tadaka. so on top of giving us nothing, they're giving several other clans cards they'll want to play already which are extra good against us. god forbid we actually get good (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) because it would last exactly like, eight seconds. the meta available would put us back in our place before we'd won more than a single thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:11 am 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
my problem with Kachiko is that she's yet more shadowlands/spider hate. no matter how bad you think she is, she's better against spider. Ditto Tadaka. so on top of giving us nothing, they're giving several other clans cards they'll want to play already which are extra good against us. god forbid we actually get good (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) because it would last exactly like, eight seconds. the meta available would put us back in our place before we'd won more than a single thing.


I guess at this point we just have to hope they at least throw us a bone and print a Red Crane Dojo type effect (not that that would help v Kachiko, but it would v everything else). Not that having to put a particular card in every deck is ideal at all, but it would at least give us a way to mitigate the worst of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:16 am 
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Personally, I find the argument that they do not want the Seige deck to be broken out to be a little shoddy as well.

The stronger argument is that none of the cards in the Seige deck are balanced for competitive play in any environment. With Heart of Darkness, that was absolutely the truth. Many of them had the Strength icon, banning them from play outside Seige, and the ones that didn't were simply more powerful than other cards out there.

However, I don't think ANYONE buying Seige: Clan Wars is doing so with the intent to keep the whole box together. Most of us who will buy one (and I still am, because Temples of Destiny + Forgotten Legacy + Shrine to Hachiman? All the rare holdings I can never get? That's worth it for me) are doing so SPECIFICALLY to break up the Companion decks.

The fact that there are no Spider Clan personalities, while every other faction (and theme, if we count the Ashigaru theme and Ronin theme) gets at least 1 personality, and that most of the power uniques in this set specifically cannot get Shadowlands or Corruption Tokens? And have several anti-Shadowlands powers?

It is flooding the environment with Iris Festivals just before the arc where Shadowlands is supposed to be scary.

Unless the Shadowlands keyword suddenly shows up on some nearly auto-win cards in Evil Portents and Blackest Storm? This just rings of really poor arc and environment design, with a clear lapse of support to one of the game's playerbases.

I am trying hard not to join the chorus of "Design doesn't like Spider!", but when they make choices like this? It is just disappointing.

Why choose the "Seven Thunders Win!" Event as your promo card for the box, when you could have given us an Unaligned - Undead - Commander Yogo Junzo who was Onyx legal?

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:41 am 
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I think this new siege deck expansion is pretty awesome, as it holds the most legendary and iconic personalities of all time. It really brings back memories for old school players like me, and i think it will really be educational for the younger generation.

The only thing that I don't like about it is getting the 7 thunders bugged for legal play. Plus those abilities focused on a specific trait.


Like, what the hell? :peasant:


And I agree with what most of us are saying here. If we're gonna get punished just because we have the taint, then they'd better give us some goddamned insane benefits for being tainted. Like a 4g 5f cavalry personality with fear 3. Or a player ability like the tactician trait: "Battle/Open: Once per personality, disscard a card and target your Shadowlands personality. Give him a stat bonus token equal to half fhe focus value rounded up. Lose honor equal to the stat bonus token gained. "

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:04 am 
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Due to forum rules and my respect for the community I shall not use the language that I should use to describe the aeg staff.

So I'll just say good bye and good riddance to buying cards. May they take their cardboard and keep it in a safe place. Wanted to trust aeg but that is gone now.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:16 am 
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They even have a special promo event win condition for the clans based on the thunders... Why couldn't they have had something similar for spider players.

It's not just a "design messed up" nonsense but a legit "we are leaving you out" statement. What cards game does this? Magic would NEVER make a set with new, powerful, cards but leave out one color because flavor...

I was so excited, first my mantis and dragon friends were excited. They were getting to finally play these awesome characters, imagine, a newer mantis player being able to own and play Yoritomo? What an awesome idea! My dragon player having their freaking Kami? So cool! I wanted that, Yogo Junzo, the guy that started this whole thing... What a cool way to bring back the feeling of horde, what a way to connect the newer spider players to the old school hordes faction they are turning us into, and after the vote it's going to be permanent. Now my friends are all talking about their new thunders and they are all excited. Me however, I'm left with the knowledge that something as dumb as "story" kept me from feeling like I was part of the fun, especially when so many people can see easy solutions to this.

Why didn't they see that we would be upset? Why didn't they give us something?

Those arguments they had are pretty bad for flat out leaving out one of the most played factions this kotei season and poisoning the shadowlands keyword well more.

Freaking annoying. I was going to grab two if these sets, one to keep whole and the other to get my toys, with friends chipping in for their thunders. But now I might just not, let my other friends pool their money to get their toys. The only valuable card in there now is Temple of Destiny for me and a second one is not worth the cost of a whole box of siege.

That move of excluding me DID cost them a sale and pissed me the hell off. Good job AEG.

It's one thing if our cards suck competitively, because I still like that we would at least still get cards with art, story and flavor and so on, at least I could open my pack and find something for me. Now we get nothing.

It's not like Junzo's horde is spider clan or anything. As a new player it's all new to me. I play it and go "hmm, interesting" and then go back to my spider decks and watch Tadaka ruin me more then others because lol story.

This carries ALL of my beefs.

Unbalanced super cards ( because these guys are no way near balanced)
Shadowlands hate ( this really makes me happy I have to deal with this for years to come) :roll:
Exclusion of my faction because "story"
Open acceptance of AEG about our faction being left out.

It's got all the problems and fears I have had about the direction of spider and it's legitamency as a proper faction. Had I been ANY other clan I would be going crazy for this set. But this soured my mood for right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:31 am 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
Sheesh, they couldn't have given you guys a Kokujin-style discount on somebody like Tsuke, Yori, Junzo...?

I get the "we didn't want the Siege deck itself to just get pillaged," but all three of the other decks are going to be gutted for their shiny shiny tournament-legal goodies... It will be entirely possible to see three decks face down Fu Leng with nary a Clan War guy to be seen- would the reverse have truly been so horrible?

^THIS.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:01 am 
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Yeah. This sucks for you. The promo card should have been a playable Spider/Shadowlands guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:08 am 
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Sigh.

I really wanted something useful - even a guy with Shadowlands and a big honor loss that we could use with Yajinden Sensei.

The set looks awesome, I will probably still get it, and I do like what they've done. But part of the excitement and cool points was, "Yes! I can play one of these legendary guys in my legal deck!" I was waiting with anticipation for literally any one of the Shadowlands guys to be legal for play - Tsuke, Junzo, anyone. The fact that the other guys also can't gain Shadowlands feels like an extra jab.

I'm not going to take it as persecution, just as casual indifference to what we might like. And that sucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:12 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
In the time it took to take a shower and get to work I came up with about 6 different solutions to Kachiko. Stop bitching about it and play the cards.

You guys can continue to bitch about not getting a Clan Wars card, though.


What of those 6 solutions are cards that would normally go in a competitive Spider deck? I ask out of curiosity

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:55 am 
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Ok I've cooled down a bit now, it's not like we couldn't see this coming. AEG dropped the ball and gave a craptastic excuse for it. Nothing new there just some more spider hate from design.

Something I was thinking was true but I kept hope for about 6 months... now I am convinced. Why? Because they didn't give us a turd, they didn't "forget" or they gave us something extra on a regular release. No they actively left spider out, no accident there it's by design. And that is a fact.

I don't agree with them and I will not support them with my money. Like the game and I'll play with borrowed cards until Onyx where I will see if they fixed it or simply walk away with good memories and some bad (mostly AEG).

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:57 am 
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BeastEG wrote:
kakita_shiro wrote:
In the time it took to take a shower and get to work I came up with about 6 different solutions to Kachiko. Stop bitching about it and play the cards.

You guys can continue to bitch about not getting a Clan Wars card, though.


What of those 6 solutions are cards that would normally go in a competitive Spider deck? I ask out of curiosity

Sudden Movement and Goju Kumoru.

Determined Challenge, Goju Saido, Ambush, and Tairao-powered Chi kill all work too. This doesn't even include any other solutions that get printed in sets beyond Evil Portents.

Thought of another one: Lookout, that Ninja Follower everyone shat all over.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:43 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
Thought of another one: Lookout, that Ninja Follower everyone shat all over.

That you even bother to mention that card makes me think you're not great at evaluating the strength of cards, because it is one of the worst cards in arc. Everyone shat all over it for good reason.

Of course there are ways to deal with Kachiko. That doesn't change the fact that she hits Spider much harder than she should, because of 'flavour'. Kachiko is a massive issue for Spider, regardless of whether or not answers exist in the environment. For every turn she's on the table a Shadowlands Personality dies, so unless you have an answer in hand she's brutally efficient, and the majority of "answers" that you listed are cards that won't reliably work.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:06 am 
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Bayushi Akai wrote:
kakita_shiro wrote:
Thought of another one: Lookout, that Ninja Follower everyone shat all over.

That you even bother to mention that card makes me think you're not great at evaluating the strength of cards, because it is one of the worst cards in arc. Everyone shat all over it for good reason.

1) Of course she's brutal against Shadowlands. This was never in dispute.
2) Of course Lookout is awful, but it does work. I'm just listing solutions not the "best" solutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:36 am 
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My solution for Kachiko is Touch of Death, but no idea if that is going to be Onyx Legal or how many 3+ Chi shuggies we'll have in Onyx. Presently we have Tairao, Shiho, Kageto, Teraiko, and Hayigi. I already generally run some shuggie support in most of my non-Swarm Spider decks, with ToD for just that purpose.

But still, she is an amazingly powerful card that is only going to grow more so the more Shadowlands personalities get printed. If she wasn't Loyal, she'd be an auto-include in my decks for her synergy with Tairao.

Also, admittedly, Toturi is not exactly a Lion, so they are in a similar boat to us, but the general attitude of "Look at all these goodies! Except... none for the Spider." really rankles those of us who deal with the Sidebar Bias (RPG term: everything Spider Clan is in a sidebar and generally not allowed by any GM ever).

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:04 pm 
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sndwurks wrote:
Also, admittedly, Toturi is not exactly a Lion, so they are in a similar boat to us, but the general attitude of "Look at all these goodies! Except... none for the Spider." really rankles those of us who deal with the Sidebar Bias (RPG term: everything Spider Clan is in a sidebar and generally not allowed by any GM ever).


I wouldn't say that lion is in the same sea as us, much less in a similar boat as Toturi might not have a lion clan mon but can be proclaimed by the lion clan. Since there is no clan discount the mon is irrelevant (mostly). And even his ability is that he unites the lion clan.

We were excluded, we didn't even get a turd card or a roundabout personality, for me its that simple. We have constantly been side bared too long and the design team can't weasel their way around it this time. It's insulting quite frankly.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:13 pm 
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sndwurks wrote:
My solution for Kachiko is Touch of Death, but no idea if that is going to be Onyx Legal or how many 3+ Chi shuggies we'll have in Onyx. Presently we have Tairao, Shiho, Kageto, Teraiko, and Hayigi. I already generally run some shuggie support in most of my non-Swarm Spider decks, with ToD for just that purpose.


Not Spider Clan, but The Banished is only 5G for 3Chi!

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:16 pm 
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Chuda Riichi wrote:
sndwurks wrote:
My solution for Kachiko is Touch of Death, but no idea if that is going to be Onyx Legal or how many 3+ Chi shuggies we'll have in Onyx. Presently we have Tairao, Shiho, Kageto, Teraiko, and Hayigi. I already generally run some shuggie support in most of my non-Swarm Spider decks, with ToD for just that purpose.


Not Spider Clan, but The Banished is only 5G for 3Chi!

The Banished won't be legal in Onyx, though his XP version will.

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