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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:34 pm 
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I think what bothers me is that at some point, someone would say, "Hey, if we are going to have a shadowlands clan" we may want to be careful about the Shadowlands hate we print. Kachiko, is just one of those bodies that I have no choice but to prepare for. Thankfully, she is unique so she will only hit the table so many times, but to lose to a flip like that can be really disheartening and make you not want to play anymore.

It's basically PoF to a certain extent all over again. I guess technically, we can abuse her though with Tairao :p

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:45 pm 
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BeastEG wrote:
I think what bothers me is that at some point, someone would say, "Hey, if we are going to have a shadowlands clan" we may want to be careful about the Shadowlands hate we print. Kachiko, is just one of those bodies that I have no choice but to prepare for. Thankfully, she is unique so she will only hit the table so many times, but to lose to a flip like that can be really disheartening and make you not want to play anymore.

It's basically PoF to a certain extent all over again. I guess technically, we can abuse her though with Tairao :p


Unique and Loyal. Meaning we can't run her, sadly, but only the Scorpion or people with wacky tricks (like Togashi Yokuni, The Hooded Ronin) can as well, so it's just another auto-loss to Scorpions.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:22 pm 
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I am actually more amazed by the fact that someone should have said if "we are going to have a shadow lands clan we should be careful about printing them a personality" to be honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:52 pm 
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DarkWolf wrote:
sndwurks wrote:
Also, admittedly, Toturi is not exactly a Lion, so they are in a similar boat to us, but the general attitude of "Look at all these goodies! Except... none for the Spider." really rankles those of us who deal with the Sidebar Bias (RPG term: everything Spider Clan is in a sidebar and generally not allowed by any GM ever).


I wouldn't say that lion is in the same sea as us, much less in a similar boat as Toturi might not have a lion clan mon but can be proclaimed by the lion clan. Since there is no clan discount the mon is irrelevant (mostly). And even his ability is that he unites the lion clan.

We were excluded, we didn't even get a turd card or a roundabout personality, for me its that simple. We have constantly been side bared too long and the design team can't weasel their way around it this time. It's insulting quite frankly.


I just finished reading an article on the official site were they proclaim they putted story over all, even if that meant excluding the Spider Clan since well, the clan wasn't a thing back on were that story happened even if the clan ancestors were all over the place there.

I find a bit scary the prospect of seeing the Spider being excluded and relegated as a optional faction for the card game however. I mean, I am used to it since I am a RPG player, but I always had the solace knowing that my clan mates were at least satisfied to where this crazy boat was heading.

The decision of not having anything for the Spider is a justifiable one by story, if the story didn't had anything related to Spider-related personalities.
However it does.

What's worse: A thread on the facebook page where a Spider player pointed that out got drowned in other people pretty much silencing the issue. As in it's fine to exclude this faction on this major release and throw back to one of the most important moments of the game, released to celebrate 20 years of L5R.

I feel kinda insulted that where I should be celebrating, I got bummed out by a decision that doesn't even affect me, but does affect those I call clan mates.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:58 pm 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
The Banished won't be legal in Onyx, though his XP version will.


There is also Kung-an. who is batter than Banished anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:14 pm 
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If any of the Shadowlands guys were or are bugged, I'm fine because we can run them with Yajinden sensei even with big honor losses. But they said that wasn't the case. But I would have accepted that as a "Spider" card.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:18 pm 
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Shingen wrote:
If any of the Shadowlands guys were or are bugged, I'm fine because we can run them with Yajinden sensei even with big honor losses. But they said that wasn't the case. But I would have accepted that as a "Spider" card.


This would be something that might as well be called a "Spider" card since those personalities are still revered by it.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:35 pm 
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Shingen wrote:
If any of the Shadowlands guys were or are bugged, I'm fine because we can run them with Yajinden sensei even with big honor losses. But they said that wasn't the case. But I would have accepted that as a "Spider" card.


Yeah absolutely this. I never expected a Spider bugged card because that obviously wouldn't make sense in the context of the sets particular setting. But they worked around that with Kokujin in Coils (although some people even complained about that which was genuinely perplexing).

And honestly I even understand if they couldn't make any of the siege personalities work as bugged cards (which is what I've heard), and they left one out but announced that they would make up for it in EP or the following set. The whole, sorry you don't get anything at all part is what irritates me.


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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:17 pm 
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There isn't even a sorry there. Unless I missed it, I might have. But I didn't see it they sounded more like "we know and are out of f... to give" to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:48 am 
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The problem with the argument of the Story Above All keeping the Spider Clan from having a personality in this set falls apart when you look at our Story Choice.

Whether we like it or not, the Spider Clan as a playable faction traces its origins to the Shadowlands Horde, and Yogo Junzo's Army before that. I am certain that some of the Spider Clan players of today were there at the Day of Thunder in GenCon 1998, representing Yogo Junzo. Ignoring them in favor of the other 8 factions still in this game is not respecting their history with the game.

Our Story Choice acknowledged the history of the Spider Clan in the Shadowlands Horde. Seige: Clan Wars did not.

Seriously, how hard would it have been to include a promo Yogo Junzo who was bugged for Onyx and 20F, with Unaligned * Undead * Shadowlands? Choosing not to do so was a design oversight, and rather than hide behind excuses, there should be an apology.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:28 am 
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sndwurks wrote:
Choosing not to do so was a design oversight, and rather than hide behind excuses, there should be an apology.


correction. it was a design choice. one that demonstrates one of the following
1. disregard for the spider fanbase, and an assumption that we're either too beat down to care or a further disregard for our unhappiness
2. knowledge that spider is soon to have so much more goodies than the other clans that they need a little boost. if so, then this falls under the standard AEG good idea, sloppy and terrible execution
3. they legitimately thought this was the right way to go. which is probably the most depressing possible interpretation

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:57 pm 
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To all those who say kumoru is an answer to kachiko, I just don't see it. Kachiko ability is dynasty/open.

so she is going to be bowed in dynasty the turn she is played and kumoru can only target unbowed people.


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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:59 am 
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Yeah, I skimmed the "Behind the scenes" article the day it came out. Only now did I go back and read every line. The part about "There are no Spider Clan personalities in the set" just reeks of indifference. I don't understand how making all of these Shadowlands hate cards legal in the same time frame as the "Shadowlands are coming to power!" storyline makes sense. I mean, you could just say, "Well, storyline-wise the Shadowlands are coming to power but there won't ACTUALLY BE any powerful shadowlands cards printed" but that seems...counter-productive for growing the player base. If your story is all about people finding ways to defeat powerful villains, but your games are always about two of the "Hero" clans fighting each other...you don't exactly have a story-driven game any more, do you?

Even if your plan is to dissolve the Spider Clan and bring back the Shadowlands Horde, doesn't it make MORE sense to reprint for current legality some of the most powerful Shadowlands Horde cards ever made? As it is, I don't know that ANY Spider deck will be able to be competitive in the next couple of Kotei seasons. It's ironic that the "Go big Evil!" option won the player vote, when the only Spider group that isn't going to get obliterated by the Seven Thunders are the Sussumu and VERY FACTION that came in last in the vote - Those who chose to Walk in the Light (and keep Shadowlands cards out of their decks, presumably) are the only ones that can stand up to the hate as they are not vulnerable to it.

That's....weird....

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:52 am 
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Just took a look at all the Shadowlands personalities now that they are in Oracle. I see no evidence or reason that any of them without Siege specific abilities could not have been bugged. If AEG seriously believes that they couldn't balance just one of them for Spider they should hire some competent design members. As for the Kanpeki rare slot issue, Lion should complain as well since they also got shafted with a unique rare in ThA. We should have got a playable non-unique from S:CW. Tsukuro will do just fine, AEG can make the "technical" errata announcement before the street legal date and I may forget about this intentional oversight. Until then, I am going to literally tear apart a siege deck with the help of my shredder and mail it to AEG.

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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:24 am 
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That seems like a waste of money, lol.

Personally I just sent them a polite email explaining that I had been really excited about the set, but because of their decision to leave spider players out and they way they announced it, they had lost a sale, and that I was telling them those reasons in hope they wouldn't choose to lose my business with future products. I feel that will be more constructive in the long term.


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 Post subject: Re: Siege: Clan War - The Seven Thunders
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:54 pm 
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Kyoden Kurosora wrote:
If AEG seriously believes that they couldn't balance just one of them for Spider they should hire some competent design members.


Don't do this. Criticism is fine. This is hyperbole and not cool. -Shingen

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