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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:13 pm 
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Kyoden Kurosora wrote:
daigotsu cielago wrote:
There's a fair bit of shadowlands hate but considering we have/are going to roflstomp their forces and kill(?) their resurrected founder champion I was expecting more.

Pretty uniformly great art, a department that has been delivering at a very high standard for a goodly while so that's no surprise but still deserves mention.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we get tomorrow


More Shadowlands hate in the form of Shinsei's Last Hope Exp (444 holding) on the Unicorn Board EP previews.


I'm fully expecting to see 2-3 cards per clan, with little to no compensation until onyx rolls in. AEG seems convinced that the 8 (ish) will need a LOT of help against the 1. right now, thats not the case, so i'm not worried about it, because its pretty much wasted space. but come onyx, that'll need re-evaluation.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Shinsei's Last Hope however I just realized is actually a problem as a 444 is always a good holding, decks need cards like these most of the time, that it has a good anti Shadowlands ability on an already greart ability, on an already amazing holding makes me a little concerned, as that will make honor and dishonor matchups unbelivably bad for us, matchups that are difficult already, as they can late game turn extra gold into free -4F jabs.

Spider better have unbelievable value this set or we might be seeing us lose the only real progress we have been getting.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:56 pm 
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Just give us a Corruption mechanic to give other Personalities the Shadowlands trait, and I will be happy.

But I have been banging that drum for a couple months now. I want our Political deck to be a Dishonor / Control deck that turns your Personalities to Shadowlands, then punishes you for it.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:01 pm 
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sndwurks wrote:
Just give us a Corruption mechanic to give other Personalities the Shadowlands trait, and I will be happy.

But I have been banging that drum for a couple months now. I want our Political deck to be a Dishonor / Control deck that turns your Personalities to Shadowlands, then punishes you for it.


Spider cant (and shouldnt) ever be dishonor, its too close to scorpion. Clout was fine and made sense story wise, it was just terribly implemented and under supported. I still win with Susumu plenty of times, against many tier 1 military decks, out political matchups are just terrible.

Either way I hope the previews for Spider give us something good to work with.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:07 pm 
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sndwurks wrote:
Just give us a Corruption mechanic to give other Personalities the Shadowlands trait, and I will be happy.

But I have been banging that drum for a couple months now. I want our Political deck to be a Dishonor / Control deck that turns your Personalities to Shadowlands, then punishes you for it.


i fully expect that, come onyx, we will be a purely military faction again. i have no real evidence to back this suspicion up, i just think that given how much hate is building up, in order to justify it all, we're going to have to be monstrous, and thats going to require a cardbase that won't brook a lot of dilution. i could absolutely be wrong. we're supposed to be running the empire, so in theory we should have a bit of everything, but that just doesn't make sense. i do wonder where shibatsu and the susumu are going to fit in, but thats a separate question.

between now and then though, i would bet good money we don't see any more susumu.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:15 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
sndwurks wrote:
Just give us a Corruption mechanic to give other Personalities the Shadowlands trait, and I will be happy.

But I have been banging that drum for a couple months now. I want our Political deck to be a Dishonor / Control deck that turns your Personalities to Shadowlands, then punishes you for it.


i fully expect that, come onyx, we will be a purely military faction again. i have no real evidence to back this suspicion up, i just think that given how much hate is building up, in order to justify it all, we're going to have to be monstrous, and thats going to require a cardbase that won't brook a lot of dilution. i could absolutely be wrong. we're supposed to be running the empire, so in theory we should have a bit of everything, but that just doesn't make sense. i do wonder where shibatsu and the susumu are going to fit in, but thats a separate question.

between now and then though, i would bet good money we don't see any more susumu.


In a dark empire there could totally be a political deck with Susumu, since them being the dominant political faction in the empire makes clout REALLY relevant. Besides, spider would be boring if there were ONLY military decks.

We are going to literally run the empire, not having a political deck would be a huge waste of opportunity.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:22 pm 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
daigotsu cielago wrote:
sndwurks wrote:
Just give us a Corruption mechanic to give other Personalities the Shadowlands trait, and I will be happy.

But I have been banging that drum for a couple months now. I want our Political deck to be a Dishonor / Control deck that turns your Personalities to Shadowlands, then punishes you for it.


i fully expect that, come onyx, we will be a purely military faction again. i have no real evidence to back this suspicion up, i just think that given how much hate is building up, in order to justify it all, we're going to have to be monstrous, and thats going to require a cardbase that won't brook a lot of dilution. i could absolutely be wrong. we're supposed to be running the empire, so in theory we should have a bit of everything, but that just doesn't make sense. i do wonder where shibatsu and the susumu are going to fit in, but thats a separate question.

between now and then though, i would bet good money we don't see any more susumu.


In a dark empire there could totally be a political deck with Susumu, since them being the dominant political faction in the empire makes clout REALLY relevant. Besides, spider would be boring if there were ONLY military decks.

We are going to literally run the empire, not having a political deck would be a huge waste of opportunity.


i don't disagree re: boring, but how do you make a political deck that makes sense for the clan that owns the empire? what does that sensei look like? bow your sensei, dishonor all personalities without shadowlands? from a thematic standpoint i'm not sure how that works, and from a practical one design has yet to figure out how to make it work, so i am not sure that they don't take a pass on it. on top of which, given that the susumu may be in exile with the emperor, we may not have a political family. we may be strongarming what remnants of the otomo don't get away for our own political functionaries.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:27 pm 
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Y'know, there's a faction that already hands out Shadowlands and punishes people for it...

So the mechanism is there.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:36 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
daigotsu cielago wrote:

i fully expect that, come onyx, we will be a purely military faction again. i have no real evidence to back this suspicion up, i just think that given how much hate is building up, in order to justify it all, we're going to have to be monstrous, and thats going to require a cardbase that won't brook a lot of dilution. i could absolutely be wrong. we're supposed to be running the empire, so in theory we should have a bit of everything, but that just doesn't make sense. i do wonder where shibatsu and the susumu are going to fit in, but thats a separate question.

between now and then though, i would bet good money we don't see any more susumu.


In a dark empire there could totally be a political deck with Susumu, since them being the dominant political faction in the empire makes clout REALLY relevant. Besides, spider would be boring if there were ONLY military decks.

We are going to literally run the empire, not having a political deck would be a huge waste of opportunity.


i don't disagree re: boring, but how do you make a political deck that makes sense for the clan that owns the empire? what does that sensei look like? bow your sensei, dishonor all personalities without shadowlands? from a thematic standpoint i'm not sure how that works, and from a practical one design has yet to figure out how to make it work, so i am not sure that they don't take a pass on it. on top of which, given that the susumu may be in exile with the emperor, we may not have a political family. we may be strongarming what remnants of the otomo don't get away for our own political functionaries.



Well considering the Susumu are planning on staying with kanpeki if he wins I HOPE they dont deny us that.

As for mechanics, just redo Clout... its a fun, unique, and effective strategy right now. Even with the terrible support it has been given, it still wins more against military then any other spider deck I own. If they gave it the time and support needed and a way to combat other political decks it could be perfectly fine. The Susumu are my babies, I love that family and would be very upset if they tried to make heroes out of them, they should be real, evil courtiers. We have sora for those "good guy spider" stories now.

The "turn you shadowlands and do stuff" sounds like a crazy gimmick with too many working parts to be viable, Maybe a chuda theme, but I would rather them have a "sacrifice the shugenja to summon Oni" mechanic instead.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:20 pm 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
The "turn you shadowlands and do stuff" sounds like a crazy gimmick with too many working parts to be viable


I dunno, man, my EE Inquisitors stomped face...

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:09 pm 
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444 that gives -4F to Shadowlands :(

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:54 pm 
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The Unicorn previews in general seem ok without being really amazing. I like the repeat ranged attack one, although it probably needs too much support to be truly obnoxious, and the force to cost is pretty brutal (which seems to be a Unicorn theme, lol).

I quite like Weathered Armor. 3f for 4 is quite good and the trait is pretty handy. Obviously you don't run it if you care about chi, but for building a big unit that just says bugger off to defensive decks it is pretty great, with the flexibility to get rid of it if you really need to (though it's hard to envision realistic situations like that).

The unaligned shugenja, Keisho, is pretty crazy too. Voitagi stats/efficiecny for everyone! She is going to see a stupid amount of play just on the back of being 3f for 3g. The trait isn't even relevant really.

And then Shinsei's Last Hope... I think 4 for 4 scheme will be quite viable once Onyx comes out (hell it probably is now if you aren't seeing Colonial Conscripts around), and even just splashing 3 4 for 4s helps consistency a lot, but when you add on a solid late game ability it is going to see a lot of play (no reason to run Nexus over it really). Then the shadowlands kicker... I think this is one of the first cards with anti-shadowlands stuff in the environment that might genuinely be of concern for us.
That said it is on a 4g holding which is a hard thing to keep straightened if you want to keep up with production (especially early game), and additionally the shadowlands kicker also requires the target to be attacking meaning it is only really a problem on your turn. So they'll be giving up a big wack of production to use it, which probably balances things out a bit. Granted late game if they've been gold flooded or with The Abbott it will be nasty, but I think it might not be quite as bad as I thought on my first look at it. Time and testing will tell of course.


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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:02 pm 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
Spider cant (and shouldnt) ever be dishonor, its too close to scorpion.



I really am sick of hearing people throw up this argument. It makes no sense at all. So if Spider is honor, then we are too close to Crane then?? I don't get it at all. So Crab is too close to Scorpion since they have an arguably better dishonor deck??? WTF?

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:17 pm 
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Sparks wrote:
TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
Spider cant (and shouldnt) ever be dishonor, its too close to scorpion.



I really am sick of hearing people throw up this argument. It makes no sense at all. So if Spider is honor, then we are too close to Crane then?? I don't get it at all. So Crab is too close to Scorpion since they have an arguably better dishonor deck??? WTF?


i very much agree. from a mechanical perspective, there are only four victory conditions, and one of them is entirely too narrow for every clan to access, so theres really only three: honor, dishonor, and military. bad enough that the dragon effective monopolize enlightenment (at least from a design perspective. i'm aware other clans CAN do it, but no other clan is nearly as much designed to do it). certainly no one clan should have a monopoly on any of the other conditions. I get that, owing to our nefariousness, theres a certain thematic overlap that makes the mechanical one seem problematic, but what is the alternative? honor? we've seen how well that works. Susumu honor a) doesn't make any sense thematically given that every hates the spider and barely begrudges our existence, much less believes we're honorable and b) practically speaking is a design disaster given that we are at a huge disadvantage that can't be removed.

all that said, heres why i suspect we're going to be all military come onyx: i have a feeling that design either agrees with you or thinks that spider cant have the other themes without throwing things out of whack. which i wanna say i emphatically disagree with, and i have no evidence to back up. i'm working on gut feelin' here. this is just sorta the impression i get. our previews tomorrow and with the next expansion will give hints, but we won't really know until we see in a few months.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:27 pm 
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Sparks wrote:
I really am sick of hearing people throw up this argument. It makes no sense at all. So if Spider is honor, then we are too close to Crane then?? I don't get it at all. So Crab is too close to Scorpion since they have an arguably better dishonor deck??? WTF?


I mostly agree with this, although it is possible that the mechanics of a hypothetical make shadowlands then do dishonor stuff theme is a little close to the Scorpion's dishonor guys then do dishonor stuff theme. You'd want to make them somewhat more distinct beyond that basic paradigm. Crab and Scorpion dishonor have always felt quite different to me with Scorpion pushing you around with political trickery and Crab attacking you economically.

I was actually hoping that Susumu would be a dishonor deck originally, so I'd be all for it as a theme at some point (and hey maybe having a dishonor theme will make Spider players less grumpy about dishonor in general, heh).


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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:42 pm 
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I want a Susumu enlightenment theme with elemental Oni support that can enlighten the same turn it hits 40 honor and destroys 4 provinces while making the opponent go to -20 honor :D

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:50 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing what we get tomorrow

Wednesday, not tomorrow. Unless it's already Tuesday for you ;).

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:00 pm 
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Sparks wrote:
TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
Spider cant (and shouldnt) ever be dishonor, its too close to scorpion.



I really am sick of hearing people throw up this argument. It makes no sense at all. So if Spider is honor, then we are too close to Crane then?? I don't get it at all. So Crab is too close to Scorpion since they have an arguably better dishonor deck??? WTF?


The Susumu ALREADY dress in blacks and reds and are a courtier family of the lowest honor clan in the game... If they gave them a dishonor theme then we would just be suckier scorpions.

If people want evil dishonor courtiers then go for it with scorpion and play them.

The Susumu and the crane differ massively in style and approach, but the Susumu DO have their own gig and story that justifies it.

The crab IS too similar to the scorpion, their play styles are so similar its not even funny because dishonor in Ivory is the freaking same strategy. I dont want that for us.

Making Spider have a dishonor theme is pointless when the scorpion are literally just one step above. Either we have a sucky theme and we complain that scorpion is just better, or a great theme and scorpions complain that they made us do Dishonor better. At least with honor it forces fun and interesting builds and mechanics, like clout. Dishonor spider would be just another boring dishonor deck, outranked because it goes last.

Especially as we enter Onyx I want them to retry Clout and NOT give it 0 support. I want to see the Susumu ranking over all others and any action taken against them giving me honor because how DARE they act against the voice of the Hantei. Its the coolest mechanic and fits almost too well.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:28 pm 
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love and hate the 444, great for gold ... annoying ability with the fact pretty much every deck is running the abbot right now :(

on another note, fear unicorn shugenja could become more powerful with that new guy, shug tower could easily get a fear 10+ which with streets goes through followers, in that instant okura would be one hell of a blow :S


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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:14 am 
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Two things to remember about Shinsei's Last Hope is that it requires bowing and is not a Home nor Absent action.

On the offensive, they are spending 4G for an action that will be -2F in most match ups. On the defense they must not spend 4G during their last turn.


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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:50 pm 
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Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:
Two things to remember about Shinsei's Last Hope is that it requires bowing and is not a Home nor Absent action.

On the offensive, they are spending 4G for an action that will be -2F in most match ups. On the defense they must not spend 4G during their last turn.


I'm thinking more about the late game where excess gold is a thing. It's an incredibly efficient holding early game that transitions into a great battle action. Even if you don't use it initially, it's power is hard to deny.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:13 pm 
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On the Susumu Honor/Dishonor front I wish they would make it a Honor/Dishonor "Switch" but instead its simultaneous. Their actions cause honor gain for them and loss for the opponent. Make it slightly slower than the rockets, give it some more control. Have it totally screw with Dishonor Decks by dishonoring them out, make the honor Rocket sputter. Force the non-military decks to move towards their secondary win condition and penalize them for being too efficient/single-minded.

Print courtiers that have traits like "When your opponent gains more than 2 honor from a single action or proclaim, reduce the honor gain to 2. Gain honor equal to the amount it was reduced."

Print Yojimbos with abilities like "Interrupt: When one of your Courtiers is targeted by another players action, dishonor (name of Yojimbo) and choose a player who gains or loses 2 honor."

Print actions with invests that are reduced to zero when played by a Spider Player that say "When another player gains honor, reduce the honor gain by 1. Gain an equal amount of honor if you paid the invest cost." and the same but when you lose honor, reduce by 1 and make the other player lose an equal amount.

Make the deck need to meta Enlightenment and late-game military. ROFL-stomp Honor/Dishonor and have a good early game versus blitz.

But thats what I'd like to see, just something done different but in theme.


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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:32 pm 
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BeastEG wrote:
Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:
Two things to remember about Shinsei's Last Hope is that it requires bowing and is not a Home nor Absent action.

On the offensive, they are spending 4G for an action that will be -2F in most match ups. On the defense they must not spend 4G during their last turn.


I'm thinking more about the late game where excess gold is a thing. It's an incredibly efficient holding early game that transitions into a great battle action. Even if you don't use it initially, it's power is hard to deny.


This^

Its power is late game when you can convert 4 extra gold into -4 force against spider, an incredibly good swing.

The 3F 3G Ashigaru also is a herald of swarm coming back in a big way, meaning that certain decks can bank on having spare gold to dedicate for these actions, also abbot.

Honor and Dishonor usually has more then enough gold turns 3-4 onward and can easily use this holding to help in combat.

Bottom line, its a GOOD card, that hits us for worse for Flavor

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:22 pm 
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The new 444 is a good card. Heck, I'd even run it. But I do not see what the fuss is all about.

If cards like Breaking the Rhythm, Courage Beyond Question, and holdings that cancels another holding's ability does not exist, then I would be really bummed about it. Otherwise, you'd just have to adjust your metagame by either putting them in your current build, or put a good mix of shadowlands and non shadowlands personalities in your deck, with the exception if you're running Yajinden.

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 Post subject: Re: [EP] Evil Portents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:59 pm 
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Or, start running Polvora Cache

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