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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:30 pm 
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Daigotsu's Legion
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Hi guys.

Just a question about Yajinden Sensei. It says fear actions from your Spider clan Personalities and Stronghold destroy attachments after bowing them. But it doesn't really say you can target attachments like spells or Items. Legion of the Ninth Kami says that you may target Spells and Items. So basically without that undead follower in game Yajinden only says that you destroy followers with your fear attacks right? Or did I misinterpret something?


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:35 pm 
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Zsan wrote:
Hi guys.

Just a question about Yajinden Sensei. It says fear actions from your Spider clan Personalities and Stronghold destroy attachments after bowing them. But it doesn't really say you can target attachments like spells or Items. Legion of the Ninth Kami says that you may target Spells and Items. So basically without that undead follower in game Yajinden only says that you destroy followers with your fear attacks right? Or did I misinterpret something?

There are also other cards that let you target items and/or spells with Fear. Take a look at the preview of Kanpeki unleashed, or the Show of Power kata.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:36 am 
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Zsan wrote:
Hi guys.

Just a question about Yajinden Sensei. It says fear actions from your Spider clan Personalities and Stronghold destroy attachments after bowing them. But it doesn't really say you can target attachments like spells or Items. Legion of the Ninth Kami says that you may target Spells and Items. So basically without that undead follower in game Yajinden only says that you destroy followers with your fear attacks right? Or did I misinterpret something?


The fear mechanic basically allows you to bow followers or personalities w/o followers w/ force equal to or less than the fear strength. It generally does not allow you to target items or spells.

Afterall, these are inanimate objects and does not know the concept of such. :D

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:21 am 
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Daigotsu G wrote:
B-Rad wrote:
Awed Witness is admittedly a bow through attachments at the cost of up to five fate cards. Strength Remains makes people run away and costs them at least one card from hand. It's downside is that in a format that is supposedly light on card draw, it makes your fate deck huge.


Both of these statements are absurd. You play Awed Witness (or any duel) it costs you exactly one card. When you focus off the top of your deck that is costing you no cards, and indeed can even sometimes effectively give you cards (through focus effects and discipline). The cards off the top of your deck aren't a cost because they aren't in your hand, and if they aren't in your hand they aren't doing anything anyway.

Can we let this awful argument die already? Cards don't have to be "currently in-hand" to matter. Dueling away your dishonor meta, for example, is SERIOUSLY going to matter. It's going to be a huge cost, and it wasn't in-hand.


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:58 am 
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Bayushi Tsubaki wrote:
Can we let this awful argument die already? Cards don't have to be "currently in-hand" to matter. Dueling away your dishonor meta, for example, is SERIOUSLY going to matter. It's going to be a huge cost, and it wasn't in-hand.


You know, its just as likely that focusing away the 4 cards in a duel will lead you to draw into your dishonor meta as to discard it right? Those 4 face down cards could be literally any card in your deck. Could be the 4 you want, could be the 4 you don't. So the odds are exactly the same either way unless you are literally drawing every card in your deck into your hand during a game and are guaranteed to see them all.

The notion that you could throw away your most important card is simply emotive and does not stack up with the reality of how probability works, and that is before you even take into account the benefits of many cards being focused (which should be the case if you have built your dueling deck well).


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:42 am 
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The Lucid Dream
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Occurance: with the Chuda coming back, what was the point of establishing the Gyushi?

Seems like another case of the WC players doing a ton of work that is then just invalidated by the stupidity of Onyx.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:46 am 
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Daigotsu's Legion
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So with Yajinden, does he negate the honor loss from actions on the cards as well, such as with Hayigi, Kumoru, and Yurishi?

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:49 am 
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Crane Envoy to The Spider
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Kumo-me wrote:
So with Yajinden, does he negate the honor loss from actions on the cards as well, such as with Hayigi, Kumoru, and Yurishi?

Yes, presuming all those Personalities are non-Nonhuman Shadowlands Personalities.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:50 am 
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Yep. Don't lose honor from Recruiting them or taking actions on them.

Still lose honor from actions on other players' cards or if they die dishonorably and have PH.

But at least we aren't being punished for running some of our cards, if we run a specific Sensei.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:53 am 
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The Enlightened Darkness, Scion of the Dark Fortune Shahai, Dark Abbot of Ekibyogami
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I eagerly await the opening of rules questions for THA, so that it can be clarified that the Yajinden Sensei does allow you to Recruit holdings. As of right now, by the rulebook, you can't bring holdings into play as Yajinden Sensei only allows you to Recruit Shaowlands Personalities, and by the rules you Recruit holdings.

Yes, there is a precedence with Koiso Sensei, but its a different enough of a situation that it will require a separate ruling.


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:47 am 
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Big Remy wrote:
I eagerly await the opening of rules questions for THA, so that it can be clarified that the Yajinden Sensei does allow you to Recruit holdings. As of right now, by the rulebook, you can't bring holdings into play as Yajinden Sensei only allows you to Recruit Shaowlands Personalities, and by the rules you Recruit holdings.

Yes, there is a precedence with Koiso Sensei, but its a different enough of a situation that it will require a separate ruling.


Oh god, they need to change the buying holdings action to something like this in order to avoid RAR problems like that:

Develop
Repeatable Dynasty, (*): Bring into play bowed a face-up Holding from your Province with Gold Cost equal to the amount you paid.


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:51 am 
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Bayushi Tsubaki wrote:
Can we let this awful argument die already? Cards don't have to be "currently in-hand" to matter. Dueling away your dishonor meta, for example, is SERIOUSLY going to matter. It's going to be a huge cost, and it wasn't in-hand.


Don't forget that Teruo's card cycle ability can give dueling with face-downs more leverage.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:59 am 
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Daigotsu G wrote:

You know, its just as likely that focusing away the 4 cards in a duel will lead you to draw into your dishonor meta as to discard it right? Those 4 face down cards could be literally any card in your deck. Could be the 4 you want, could be the 4 you don't. So the odds are exactly the same either way unless you are literally drawing every card in your deck into your hand during a game and are guaranteed to see them all.

The notion that you could throw away your most important card is simply emotive and does not stack up with the reality of how probability works, and that is before you even take into account the benefits of many cards being focused (which should be the case if you have built your dueling deck well).


Thing is, in a card game where you want it to be as non random as possible, why are you relying on RNJesus in the hopes you'll be doing a sub par effect (Weakness Exposed not withstanding) when you can just run something that could duplicate said sub par effect and not grind cards off your fate deck, regardless of what they are? Lost resources are still lost resources and while yes there are some ok discipline cards, the two main ones I see play (Swamps and Ideological) have terrible focus values.
Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:
B-Rad wrote:

itsybitsy wrote:

Do not Delay (Limited kill! or permanently gain a Battle: Bow Duel)
Awed Witness (Battle: Bow and create spud)
Brazen Challenge (Battle: Bow and take an additional action if you win by 3)
Stand or Run (Battle: unbowed may refuse, which sends them home bowed. Otherwise unit kill.)

Dueling's problem has been lack of effective duelists rather than lack of effective duels. Hard to win duels when your 3C duelists face 4C non-duelists.


Do Not Delay is never ever accepted in the limited phase unless the opponent is winning the duel (which nine times out of ten they aren't). So you get the chance to bow a personality (which is still the weakest mechanic in battle) if you win another duel in a battle. That doesn't stop your opponent from using the bowed personalities attachments, and he still has presence at the battle field to play unperformed actions.

Awe Witness is ok. I've said that before. It bows (see above how bow is weak) and creates blank force that can't be Courage Beyond Questioned.

Brazen Challenge is garbage. Look at the average non unique duelist. What's their chi? Two? Three? And that's not even counting non honor shugenja decks with their four+ chi all around. Now look at the chi for the average duelist. Three? Maybe four? If someone's tossing out a weak action that just bows my guy (again see above for how bow is weak), why am I going to focus out and give him the chance to win by three? Strike and move on.

Stand or Run is ok as well. Having said that it adds an extra card/action in investment before it actually becomes any good. Send home, while better than bow is still not that good given the plethora of ways to stop it (Ring of Earth, Brazen Disregard) or the even more plethora of ways to move back (Back to the Front, Ring of Water, Accessible Terrain), on top of all the playable straighten (Ring of Air, Way of the Mantis, Relentless). Now if you want to invest an extra thing to bow the personality you were going to challenge good on you. It's still paying two cards for potentially (again RNJesus comes into play) being able to kill a guy.


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:18 am 
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Meh personalities and good sensei.... with a huge oversight. Zenshi doesn't benefit from him and is a lynchpin of the deck.... sad day for DT fail

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:19 am 
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Duel -> the best meta "dueling vs. honor deck".


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:46 pm 
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DarkWolf wrote:
Meh personalities and good sensei.... with a huge oversight. Zenshi doesn't benefit from him and is a lynchpin of the deck.... sad day for DT fail


With as much honor as the sensei saves you from losing as it's currently worded, you can stand to lose a little honor from Zenshi.

It's it everything we all wanted? No. But, it's hardly a DT fail.


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:03 pm 
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B-Rad wrote:
Brazen Challenge is garbage. Look at the average non unique duelist. What's their chi? Two? Three? And that's not even counting non honor shugenja decks with their four+ chi all around. Now look at the chi for the average duelist. Three? Maybe four? If someone's tossing out a weak action that just bows my guy (again see above for how bow is weak), why am I going to focus out and give him the chance to win by three? Strike and move on.


Because when it's a duel of force and you're throwing out a personality that has a duel stat of 6+ then it's a bow and an extra action for you if they just decide to strike..........if only there were a card that allowed you to destroy a bowed personality.

I think if you're willing to get creative and take some risks you will be rewarded. I could be wrong and Onita might not be the proper horse to hitch my dueling wagon too, but, I'm sure going to try it.


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:21 pm 
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Qalyar wrote:
I do agree that Tomiyama largely sucks (although Expendable Yojimbo would be a more interesting if you had at least one more Yojimbo for Final Sacrifice tricks)


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:52 pm 
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Cambeul no Oni wrote:
Qalyar wrote:
I do agree that Tomiyama largely sucks (although Expendable Yojimbo would be a more interesting if you had at least one more Yojimbo for Final Sacrifice tricks)


http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/show ... image/jpeg


i don't know if expendable is the word i'd use for 9 gold with a 2 honor hit. good though.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:31 pm 
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B-Rad wrote:
Thing is, in a card game where you want it to be as non random as possible, why are you relying on RNJesus in the hopes you'll be doing a sub par effect (Weakness Exposed not withstanding) when you can just run something that could duplicate said sub par effect and not grind cards off your fate deck, regardless of what they are?


So you don't want to randomly discard cards off the top of your deck because you want to randomly draw a particular card off the top of your deck? Obviously "RNJesus" is more favorable to those who only draw the top card, lol. Believe in the heart of the cards!

Most decks will not see more than 1/3 to 1/2 of their deck in their hand in any given game. All of those cards you do not see are completely dead. Why, if you are not going to see those cards anyway, would you care if you mill a few? Especially when in a dueling deck you can build so that those milled cards become activated gaining card advantage over your opponent?

Additionally consider the case where you are looking for a particular card, and lets say its turn 5 and you've drawn a few extra cards. So you would have seen about 12 cards. That will leave 28 cards left in your deck. The odds are far higher that that one card you really want is in the bottom 24 and not the top 4 (84% chance its not in the top 4). The majority of the time focusing 4 times off the deck will make it *more* likely you will draw the card you want.

Many duel effects are weak certainly. Which is why you don't play those cards. Just as you wouldn't play crap like Banzai or whatever. There are currently a handful of duels in the environment that more than carry their weight (Weakness, Awed, Onieyara, COaaT, Sanctioned etc) and a bunch that are probably not worth running. Many of these have abilities that are hard to duplicate whilst also being powerful. So just run the good ones. A military deck really doesn't need any more than Weakness, Awed and Onieyara in my experience.

B-Rad wrote:
Lost resources are still lost resources and while yes there are some ok discipline cards, the two main ones I see play (Swamps and Ideological) have terrible focus values.


Quite aside from the fact that they are not lost resources as I have shown above, this is patently untrue. The following are cards with 3 or 4 focus and discipline:

Courage Beyond Question
The Thrill of Daring
Honed to a Razors Edge
Unforgivable
Way of the Any Clan

All of which are really strong cards - Courage and Thrill especially, and I think Unforgivable will find a place in a lot of decks.
Yes, Idealogical is not ideal for a dueling deck, but not every card is going to be good for every deck.

And that is before we even look at focus effects (Sudden Movement being a free fate cards worth of force boost for instance).


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:36 pm 
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I like it, especially the Fear action.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:21 pm 
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Brad is correct that dueling is bad, but he's focusing on the wrong reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:08 pm 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
Brad is correct that dueling is bad, but he's focusing on the wrong reasons.


I think dueling is bad for some clans, and good for others. Defensive honor dueling isn't great at the moment, but I think tactician dueling builds are excellent (which is why I took one to a Kotei obviously :daisho: ).


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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:38 am 
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itsybitsy wrote:
DarkWolf wrote:
Meh personalities and good sensei.... with a huge oversight. Zenshi doesn't benefit from him and is a lynchpin of the deck.... sad day for DT fail


With as much honor as the sensei saves you from losing as it's currently worded, you can stand to lose a little honor from Zenshi.

It's it everything we all wanted? No. But, it's hardly a DT fail.


Does it do as it intended? Negating honor loses so you would not auto loose to dishonor and be able to play a shadowlands deck? Can spider now play with all their personalities, using one or the other sensei without getting mcshafted? No? Then it's a fail in my book.

I'm criticizing and putting it as a fail for those reasons. I'm not saying that the card is bad, quite the opposite I like it and thing it's our best card from the whole expansion. Will it make spider better absolutely. But zenshi is an oversight and it's made worse by the fact that it was released in the expansion directly before this one. So it's not as if we cannot take the honor loss it's more of a question of WHY We have to take the honor loss. It's not like it matters against military, enlightenment or honor it just craps out our day with our already bad matchup.... Dishonor.

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 Post subject: Re: [THA] Thunderous Acclaim Spider Previews
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:22 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
Brad is correct that dueling is bad, but he's focusing on the wrong reasons.


Dueling is bad because it's not a real theme, it's a type of action and if you can't have it support your win condition properly then it's just a complicated action.

Lion dueling tactitilans works because it uses only a select few duels and uses it to force bump and synergize with a deck full of 4FV cards tactitilans want anyway.

Crane dueling, while not the best honor engine still gets you honor and card draw with the sensei along with defending through send home.

These dueling decks work because the duels get them somewhere and earn them things outside of the duel itself, aiding their condition or synergize with their deck's abilities.

This is something that Spider and Scorpion suffer with their designs at the core.

Spider really doesn't have any synergy with dueling actions like the lion does. Sahara makes a fear action... Which isn't really viable in the meta right now and the best spider cards are low focus value cards like Ideological.

Scorpion also has control elements.like the crane, but unlike crane does not actually support the main win condition the deck sets out for. Chi death is good, but it has to be directed at winning the game, something the Kumoru control military decks simply do better. Their reward for dueling is a single poison counter which, as normally that can only be applied once makes the deck unreliable and slow.

Now, I am testing spider dueling, because I test a little of everything, but the idea that Sahara is viable simply isn't the case. Aranai could work as well but in my mind the Ogre Bushi build is probably going to be the closest we are going to get to anything that could work right now.

But if they keep focusing in making duelists like Onita then we could be getting somewhere in a set or two. I mean, we get a pair of duelists a set, and all we need is for one or two more of them to be relevant.

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