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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:03 am 
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The UnderTaro wrote:
Sparks wrote:
Also. All you people who think they will run this guy without the sensei are crazy as hell. You are getting too complacent on the current meta game. Have you all completely forgotten about a very prominent win condition called dishonor? Just because it isn't very viable right now, doesn't mean it isn't in 20f. I'm fairly certain that dishonor will come back in full swing once 20f comes around.


Sure, because neither you nor them know how the 20F environment is going to be, but they are wrong and crazy and you're right.

This is getting old...


yeah, i mean, at this point the burden of proof is on AEG to show they CAN design well for spider, not on us to show that they can't. crankery on the part of spider players is 100% irrefutably justified after 7 years less breeder as not just the worst performing but the victim of the worst design of all the clans.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:31 am 
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The UnderTaro wrote:

Sure, because neither you nor them know how the 20F environment is going to be, but they are wrong and crazy and you're right.

This is getting old...


You all heard it from a playtester. Dishonor is not gonna be around in 20f.

Of course I don't know for sure that dishonor is gonna come back in 20f. What I do know is that this is not the time for AEG to puss off a good amount of the player base. And if dishonor doesn't come back and be at least somewhat competitive, that is exactly what will happen.

I, seriously, don't even think playtesters even test the spider/dishonor matchup. Or if they do, they don't report the results in a convincing way that dishonor is an auto loss for spider. Because if they did, we would be getting better design for spider to overcome this deficiency.

Me arguing for better balance is getting old? Really?? Sorry to say, but what is really getting old is spider auto losing to dishonor and nothing ever being done about it.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:45 am 
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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:42 am 
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The absence of the shadowlands trait makes this guy a must if you want to use that dragon sensei


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:01 pm 
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Quote:
You all heard it from a playtester. Dishonor is not gonna be around in 20f


Yeah, that's what I said... not.

Quote:
Of course I don't know for sure that dishonor is gonna come back in 20f. What I do know is that this is not the time for AEG to puss off a good amount of the player base. And if dishonor doesn't come back and be at least somewhat competitive, that is exactly what will happen.


This is the Sahara Sensei thread all over again. You can just copy and paste anyone of your posts from there since you're not bringing anything new to the table. You don't like the honor loss, we get it. Guess what: I don't like it either. But in this case, that 1 point loss gives you a 3F/4C Reserve guy with a relevant Keyword for only 5g. You still pretend to be right on the "Shiho should be the norm for our personalities" thing... and then you say that you pretend balance? I'm sorry, but Shiho is not balanced, not at all. He's the BEST personality in IE. Period.

Quote:
I, seriously, don't even think playtesters even test the spider/dishonor matchup. Or if they do, they don't report the results in a convincing way that dishonor is an auto loss for spider. Because if they did, we would be getting better design for spider to overcome this deficiency.


It would not be the first time that you're wrong...

Quote:
Me arguing for better balance is getting old? Really?? Sorry to say, but what is really getting old is spider auto losing to dishonor and nothing ever being done about it.


No, it's you hijacking every single thread and making them a whine fest what's getting old.


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:13 pm 
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i don't know much about playtest and what you can and cannot say. Assuming you can say anything, what DOES get said about the spider/dishonor matchup? if you can't talk about 20F, what about in IE? Its disingenuous to pretend there isn't a legitimate problem here. we've got multiple years and multiple base sets worth of evidence that spider gets its ass kicked flat out no contest by dishonor, and randomly putting honor loss on guys who have no need for it story wise (putting aside entirely that whole issue) exacerbates the perception of that problem. i'm sure theres a justification for him having it, as his statline is good, but in the wider context of the spider in general, i think theres an every stronger argument that its insane.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:38 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
i don't know much about playtest and what you can and cannot say. Assuming you can say anything, what DOES get said about the spider/dishonor matchup? if you can't talk about 20F, what about in IE? Its disingenuous to pretend there isn't a legitimate problem here. we've got multiple years and multiple base sets worth of evidence that spider gets its ass kicked flat out no contest by dishonor, and randomly putting honor loss on guys who have no need for it story wise (putting aside entirely that whole issue) exacerbates the perception of that problem. i'm sure theres a justification for him having it, as his statline is good, but in the wider context of the spider in general, i think theres an every stronger argument that its insane.


Ok, that feels a little disingenuous. Emperor had two strongholds that didn't have blanket "do not lose fate from Spider/fate", and one of them was for Ninja. So 3(2) out of 13. 4(3) out of 14 if you count 20 Festivals. So, multiple years? No, just since Ivory was there no stronghold protecting against causing yourself honor loss. Multiple base sets? Still just Ivory.

So, Spider has had one year of "auto-loss" against dishonor. And dishonor had 12 years of auto-loss against Shadowlands.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:12 pm 
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The UnderTaro wrote:
No, it's you hijacking every single thread and making them a whine fest what's getting old.


Not really. His opinion is valid, trying to discredit it and demonize him only disparages your position. There is a huge number of Spider players that are frustrated. I've played since Khan's Defiance, when the first 'Spider Clan' Personality dropped. I've seen us suck a whole lot over the years. Then I saw half an arc where we were broken...but I enjoyed playing with the goblins/oni/zombies and obviously tainted monsters. I enjoyed Celestial Arc for the undead and obviously monstrous guys we had then as well. I see guys like this 3/4 duelist...and I just feel like so much has been lost. I could see this guy in Phoenix no problem. These flavor texts about all this Spider hate, but all these pure little souls that are just being lumped in, o woe is me - I'm just a poor little emo from a hard home :/

If he is a "good" Spider and has honor loss? Then *every* Spider should have honor lose. Then, that honor lose should be ignored in clan and lock others out.

Spider can't use 80%+ of the other personalities in the game cause of HR. This is even more problematic for the Susumu who can't use any ooc Courtier/honor characters, where ever other clan can, and even scalp our guys. The Susumu get most of their value from traits and effect - their PH being low.

In the end we struggle to afford even small honor losses, being locked into this Sensei for any dueling decks now, while the majority of other clans can soak that 1-2 honor loss for choice bits of our stable. This has been the case countless times with Crane/Oni. They get to go first with 6-7 Force nuke engines and still keep their honor flowing - while we can't even dream of running Oni and founder against dishonor regardless.

Lion out perform us in tempo (going first), tend to blow swarm out of the water, and have superior fate side choices....best part, you get them stalled out, they can honor out on your butt.

Spider has always been woefully underpowered, or for a short time, woefully busted. Neither speak well of a handle or even understanding of balancing tempo, stats and honor losses. Mantis is a military faction, to make up for their tempo issues, they have more kill than any other clan and free sneaks. That helps them kill honor loses before the other guy even gets a chance. What does Spider get for going last? We have a province flip in most cases, something that helps not a wit against dishonor or honor. We have psudo-bow that you need a whole combo to get around the most basic of protections. We have typical force for our GC. We have blank low-chi monks that proscribe to an all eggs in one basket approach to autoloss. We have confused courtiers that run off in 3-4 different directions (clout was a fumble last arc) and only gain us 2 honor normally. They, again, rely on combos to attain what other clan attain without synergy. I desperately wanted to play Susumu Spider - but starting 6-7 honor down (a full turn) with abilities scattered to the wind, PH's in the 2's, requiring synergy (i.e. weakness) in order to match the honor gains of other factions from simple proclaim actions, synergy that makes it harder to throw guys under the bus and keep the engine running, monks that require weapons to function (so thrown out as viable in the honor decks), samurai with no ability to protect their charges or to retain presence, samurai with no useful keywords like Yojimbo to improve there synergy with a courtier deck.

Duelist can be useful paired with courtier, but seeing as our courtiers and our duelist now run in opposite directions with honor gain/loss and each need their own Sensei *shrug* what was said about Sensei lock out it 100% true.

Honestly, I'd like to see how Spider do when going first - see if they can even win 50/50 with that drastic change in tempo. Somehow I doubt it.


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:14 pm 
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but we had an auto loss to dishonor before we lost our honor loss protection on our boxes. I'm ok with having an auto loss, but it should come with a trade off. All of our honor losses should be offset with more powerful personalities or actions. Hachiko is a step in the right direction.


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:18 pm 
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on box honor protection is kind of besides the point. even with it, spider was an auto-loss to dishonor throughout emperor and before. the nature of the problem has changed, but the outcome has not. recent gripes re: honor loss on personalities is only the most recent manifestation of the issue. In CE it was the static honor losses. in emperor it was the fact that the whole environment was superpowered, but spider was behind the curve, so dishonor decks got tools to handle AGGRO mil decks and we never really caught up.

i'm not one of those who thinks dishonor should go away, or that we should be immune (though i can make an argument for it, for rhetorical sake), but i think that we should have tools to be competitive against it, and in the entire life of the spider as a faction that hasn't been the case (though i can't in full faith speak to samurai as i wasn't playing, but others have spoken at length as to the numbers such that i think i'm fairly confident making that statement)

edit: yes to all those things chris just said above.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:30 pm 
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Thing is, Spider should be getting those better Personalities already, without needing to tack an honor loss on them to 'balance' them against the Personalities of other Clans. It's all well and good to compare Personalities in a vacuum, but two similar Personalities will be very different animals depending on their Clan - for instance, someone with a force bonus when attacking is MUCH better in Lion than in Scorpion, because Lion will be attacking first most of the time, and thus, has much less of a chance to be a dead card, or at least has a higher probability of getting his full effect. That's why this 'all Clan Personalities are statted on the same budget' is fatally flawed, because Clans who go second most often need better Personalities for their buck than Clans who go first. Hell, I've written piles and piles on the inherent advantages that High Honor Clans have vs the complete lack of advantages that the Low Honor Clans have. High Honor Clans give up NOTHING for their advantages, while Low Honor Clans struggle with disadvantages from the word go.

So, no, giving us a very well statted Personality for cheap, with an Honor Loss is just more of the same, more punishment for being a Low Honor Clan when we should be getting guys like this naturally as a way of balancing the scales between the copious advantages a High Honor Clan gets (access to the Favor, ability to Honor out in stalled games, more access to Personalities with HRs, many many cards that key off high PH while there are NO cards that key off having a Low PH, going first more often) and the need for Low Honor Clans to HAVE to seize tempo in order to be able win a game.


Also, I'd still like an answer to my question. We're being asked, yet again, to trust Design and Playtest. Given that their record with Spider is 5 years of 7 where Spider is one of the worst competitive Clans, and 3 years in a row now, where Spider has been one of the worst competitive Clans (and let's put emphasis on this, three years in a ROW, which is some impressive sustained failure), why should be believe you when you say you 'know the environment' or assert that Spider will be better in the second half of Ivory, when that is your record of balancing Spider?

Honestly, given those numbers there, if you can't see why being told to take on pure faith alone that dishonor won't be an auto-loss in 20f, that the honor loss on Spider Personalities won't be an issue against dishonor, or whatever it is you're expecting us to believe you on, is just not something that can happen, given you have almost no record of success with regards to Spider to point at and say 'Look at this! This proves we know what we're doing!'.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:18 pm 
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
Thing is, Spider should be getting those better Personalities already, without needing to tack an honor loss on them to 'balance' them against the Personalities of other Clans. It's all well and good to compare Personalities in a vacuum, but two similar Personalities will be very different animals depending on their Clan - for instance, someone with a force bonus when attacking is MUCH better in Lion than in Scorpion, because Lion will be attacking first most of the time, and thus, has much less of a chance to be a dead card, or at least has a higher probability of getting his full effect. That's why this 'all Clan Personalities are statted on the same budget' is fatally flawed, because Clans who go second most often need better Personalities for their buck than Clans who go first. Hell, I've written piles and piles on the inherent advantages that High Honor Clans have vs the complete lack of advantages that the Low Honor Clans have. High Honor Clans give up NOTHING for their advantages, while Low Honor Clans struggle with disadvantages from the word go.


I've seen a number of variations on this arguement that I want to address.

The notion that lower honour clans should get higher stated personalities is inherently flawed because all clans can also go first. So lets say you want to boost up the low honour clans, say just Spider, Scorpion and Mantis for arguments sake. Those 3 clans now do better v the other 6 obviously, but in matches where Spider is playing Scorpion or Scorpion is playing Mantis and so on, all of a sudden the going first player is again at a huge disadvantage because their compensation is turned back on them. On the other hand if you say well maybe just Spider need the boost, Scorpion and Mantis players will be disadvantaged as they go second most of the time still.

And where do you stop it, does Crab get the boost, how about Unicorn? And if not, why are they the poor suckers who get the worst of both worlds?

The going second issue is obviously a problem in the game, and needs to be addressed, but purely giving an arbitrary subset of clans better personalities than other clans is not the way to do it. More general mechanical things are a far better way to address it (things like extra holdings to start, double sided strongholds, courtesy etc), as it keeps the game balance for any situation (whoever is first and second in any given match regardless of clan). Now obviously they haven't nailed it yet which is frustrating, but it is clearly the better path.


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:08 pm 
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Courtesy used properly could solve a lot of this.

Going back to the roots of the game, Shadowlands had huge downsides, but, huge rewards. Now the downsides are more of a nusiance than anything, but, enough to create some unfavorable match-ups and without providing enough of a reward.

In the beginning, it wasn't just a couple Shadowlands cards that were among the best stated cards.......all of them were bonkers. Moto Tsume, Oni no Akuma, Oni no Ogon, Kyoso no Oni..............all of them trumped anything else out there. And you were also vulnerable to Iris Festival. :lol:

Fast foward to now, Spider don't get punished nearly as much as OG shadowlands, but, they also have relatively few great personalities. Not sure if this is a problem with story and game not mixing well, or what.

I get why everyone is so upset, but, we can't really expect to go back to that. I also can't blame it on design and playtest. If you push the envelope too far you end up with breeder or worse. Sure spider gets a brief moment in the sun but everyone else suffers. I think the strict enironment ivory -tno is pretty well balance and that's really the first complete arc of ivory. Nothing i've seen out of 20f previews really worries me about spider. I think they'll be fine


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:48 pm 
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The UnderTaro wrote:
Quote:
You all heard it from a playtester. Dishonor is not gonna be around in 20f


Yeah, that's what I said... not.

Quote:
Of course I don't know for sure that dishonor is gonna come back in 20f. What I do know is that this is not the time for AEG to puss off a good amount of the player base. And if dishonor doesn't come back and be at least somewhat competitive, that is exactly what will happen.


This is the Sahara Sensei thread all over again. You can just copy and paste anyone of your posts from there since you're not bringing anything new to the table. You don't like the honor loss, we get it. Guess what: I don't like it either. But in this case, that 1 point loss gives you a 3F/4C Reserve guy with a relevant Keyword for only 5g. You still pretend to be right on the "Shiho should be the norm for our personalities" thing... and then you say that you pretend balance? I'm sorry, but Shiho is not balanced, not at all. He's the BEST personality in IE. Period.

Quote:
I, seriously, don't even think playtesters even test the spider/dishonor matchup. Or if they do, they don't report the results in a convincing way that dishonor is an auto loss for spider. Because if they did, we would be getting better design for spider to overcome this deficiency.


It would not be the first time that you're wrong...

Quote:
Me arguing for better balance is getting old? Really?? Sorry to say, but what is really getting old is spider auto losing to dishonor and nothing ever being done about it.


No, it's you hijacking every single thread and making them a whine fest what's getting old.



Sahara Sensei, guys with honor loss, auto loss to dishonor, etc... yeah it's all about the same isn't it? You'd think a clue would be picked up by now. But obviously, it isn't happening.

I provide cold hard facts about the position spider is (and has been) in and with a wave of a hand, you try and dismiss anything I say without any means of backing yourself up with facts.
You say I'm wrong about playtesters not testing the spider/dishonor match up? So since they ARE testing it (because I'm obviously wrong in my assessment), testers feel that it's a solid match up without things needing to be done about it? They think everything is fine? I guess I don't understand how I'm wrong. It's either they don't test the match up (I'm right) or they test it and think it's fine (I'm wrong). It's gotta be one of those, right? I don't know the answer because all I get out of you is a hand wave of dismissal. If I'm wrong about my assumption, I will be the first to admit it. You say I'm wrong so obviously, the spider/dishonor match up is all nice and balanced and we can all rejoice in that fact.

Oh... another dismissal. I'm turning things in to a whine fest now? How is it that I bring up valid problems spider players face when playing considered whining? I'm open for any debate here, man. If you can present to me any facts of what I'm saying isn't true, then I will openly apologize. The fact of the matter is that spider sux ass vs dishonor. Always has and there is no indication from anything I've seen for 20f to indicate that it is gonna get better. In fact, it highlights the opposite. Please explain to me how putting honor loss on our own peeps helps us overcome the dishonor match up. I'm really intrigued.

And to bring up another thing. I am not the pessimistic person you think I am. When I see things that are good, I say it's good. When I see things that are bad, I say it's bad. How am I to blame that most things that come up recently have been bad? I didn't say everything... I said most things. There are still a lot of good things with L5R right now. But right now, I see more bad than good. And it's started with the clan I enjoy playing and competing with. I want spider to be good. I think there is a lot of potential for spider to be good. But the way things are going, it looks like more of the same. I'm not ready to give up playing. I will continue to play the game because I like it. I'm not gonna go out and compete in the amount of koteis I have in the past because the game just doesn't interest me enough to do all the traveling I used to. But I will play a crap load of games online and continue running online tournaments and go to some koteis if only to just hang out with friends. And I will also continue to offer my opinions of things bad or good.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:05 pm 
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I'm not going to get deep into how Playtest works again, but there are definitely games played against dishonour. I took my share of beatings from Crab, especially when testing Tsujuken. A valid point was brought up when reporting results, although how valid can be debated (and surely will), and that was "did you run any meta for your bad matchup?" Every clan has them. Dishonour is rocked by Cavalry usually (as is honour). Something like Mantis ThunderChicks with all their smaller Ranged attacks have issues with big unit Kensai, etc.

I'm not going to insult by suggesting it's exactly the same but there ARE meta options available. Andrew and Randy Green took a teched out Spider deck to Seattle Kotei last year and Randy beat two or maybe three dishonour decks and made top 8. It can be done. The reply to this will surely be "why should I meta for 5% of the field?", but if that's your worst matchup, that's why. Or you accept the auto-loss and go full corrupt.

I lost to dishonour last night with Armitage's deck because I still brought out House of Disgrace as my first holding (I only flipped one other). If I'm that worried, I shouldn't run House, but that's a deck building choice Mark made and in Strict, dishonour isn't as good as it was in Arc (the guy's Scorpion deck was 2-7 at that point, so if I hit him early in the Kotei, I have a bad beat story). I agree with his choice, but I could meta dishonour by not running it. There are outs if you want to take them. Maybe not optimal ones, but that's a meta game call.

In the meantime, to bring it back to the personality previewed, to get a 3/4 Reserve Duelist for 5g, it means an honour loss if you are trying to run Hachiko is a non-Sensei deck. It will be a meta game call whether that makes Hachiko worth running in a generic swarm deck (which I'd be happy to see disappear anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:33 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
I lost to dishonour last night with Armitage's deck because I still brought out House of Disgrace as my first holding (I only flipped one other). If I'm that worried, I shouldn't run House, but that's a deck building choice Mark made and in Strict, dishonour isn't as good as it was in Arc (the guy's Scorpion deck was 2-7 at that point, so if I hit him early in the Kotei, I have a bad beat story). I agree with his choice, but I could meta dishonour by not running it. There are outs if you want to take them. Maybe not optimal ones, but that's a meta game call.


I'm going to bring up that at the start of Ivory you mentioned that cards like Slave pits were supposed to be our way of regaining tempo as spider, now your telling us that we have to meta by NOT running them. Honor loss is simply a stupid mechanic. Its one thing to have an insanely difficult time with dishonor, but the matchup could be winnable vs games where I give my opponent 1/4- half of their win condition simply by playing my own cards. Imagine if Mantis personalities caused your opponent to gain honor when they came into play, imagine their legit anger over the insanity fighting honor would be.

The sheer lack of entertainment and fun in this matchup is the biggest problem. If it was just a really hard matchup, with him having to hit -20 points to end me and me trying to out pace him, that would be cool, the 0 starting honor makes it a challenge. But no, its actually him having to hit -20 points while I'm having to walk on eggshells just to not lose faster. Design failed to make it interesting and fun by not just leaving the challenge at starting with 0 but with having to question whether you can play your own cards or will they simply make you lose faster.

Meta is pathetic for the matchup, the real meta is simply speeding up your tempo, something that spider cant really do without giving the game to dishonor.

The fact that our tempo boosting advantage, not caring about honor loss, is a detrimental, deck deciding problem that creates a negative play experience, caused by just playing our own cards, is a complete failure. Making us care about our honor losses, with no real change to personalities losses was a disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:10 am 
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I'm going to bring up that at the start of Ivory you mentioned that cards like Slave pits were supposed to be our way of regaining tempo as spider, now your telling us that we have to meta by NOT running them. Honor loss is simply a stupid mechanic. Its one thing to have an insanely difficult time with dishonor, but the matchup could be winnable vs games where I give my opponent 1/4- half of their win condition simply by playing my own cards. Imagine if Mantis personalities caused your opponent to gain honor when they came into play, imagine their legit anger over the insanity fighting honor would be.


Slave Pits is still fine, because you never have to lose any honour with the card and its still a 2-for-2. House of Disgrace is an entirely different animal. That's why I vastly prefer Slave Pits to House. No initial honour hit. There's also nothing saying we have to run House of Disgrace in our decks. The tradeoff for super efficient gold is honour loss and has been since corrupt gold holdings and Black Markets. This is nothing new.

As for your Mantis analogy, I suppose it would depend on whether giving the opponent honour got you an additional gold or two value on your Mantis card. And whether you're including A Time For Action in your deck... ;)

Quote:
The sheer lack of entertainment and fun in this matchup is the biggest problem. If it was just a really hard matchup, with him having to hit -20 points to end me and me trying to out pace him, that would be cool, the 0 starting honor makes it a challenge. But no, its actually him having to hit -20 points while I'm having to walk on eggshells just to not lose faster. Design failed to make it interesting and fun by not just leaving the challenge at starting with 0 but with having to question whether you can play your own cards or will they simply make you lose faster.


I hate dishonour regardless of which clan I'm playing, so to imply that its only a negative experience out of Spider is funny because I find dishonour a negative experience all the time and wish it would die in a fire. Its also not particularly easy for Scorpion, Mantis or Crab, especially with those clans having some people with actual PH. But there are players that love it, such as the guy I lost to yesterday, who is still trying to make a Strict Scorpion dishonour deck work instead of exploring Scorpion military. That's why its still in the game.

Quote:
Meta is pathetic for the matchup, the real meta is simply speeding up your tempo, something that spider cant really do without giving the game to dishonor.


There are multiple options, including honour gaining holdings, Military Alliance, cards like Discretionary Valour (which is in Ornatov's posted Swarm deck), Followers and Items that gain honour, etc. While it was Arc, Randy ran 3 Secluded Shrines, Military Alliance and I believe 2 Carpenters in his deck that made top 8 in Seattle.

However, because I'm genuinely curious, what would your solution be? You want to increase Spider's tempo, tempo that appears to be doing just fine in Strict outside of dishonour matchups. How much can you ramp up Spider without doing the same with Scorpion, who only starts a single honour higher and also has mostly 0s and 1s for PH? What's the cutoff? Crab and Mantis are low enough to go second lots but maybe not Unicorn? Where does that ramp stop? Or is it only for Spider? Because while I definitely symphatize with the issue, being a Spider player myself, I do tend to also find that some of this is "I don't want to have to make the effort to fight my bad matchup" and also "I want to just play every good personality regardless of deck they're designed for even though other clans have to deal with honour requirements that keep them from doing that."

I concede that without any meta, we autolose to dishonour. Even with meta, we're in tough, although we're far better off in Strict with fewer static honour losses. I'm not saying there doesn't need to be some better options for us to help deal with it and fewer static honour losses for dishonour to use (which we've seen in Ivory and post-Ivory expansions, especially with regards to holding-based honour loss). But we hold our own in military matchups, and arguably are pretty good in Strict (and can we PLEASE stop with the "Spider is still horrible" stuff, because we clearly aren't in Strict). And we have pretty good force-to-gold and such to deal with honour. So that leaves one decktype. "I don't want to dilute my deck." Neither does that midgame military deck that takes an extra turn to ramp up so they run anti-Honour stuff. Neither does that Honour or Dishonour deck that has issues with Cavalry and runs Absent and Anti-Cav actions to deal with it.

If you want a better shot against dishonour, don't run House of Disgrace. Don't include Skeletal Troops. Don't repeatedly bring out Shiho, who isn't very good against dishonour anyway. Include Military Alliance, since you may be able to take at least a couple of provinces to gain some honour. Look at Carpenter Shrine. Heck, maybe you would be able to run Marimako and Takuan in your deck with some tweaks to the holdings. Running corrupt has ALWAYS had a price in the game. From day 1. Corrupt Crab Oni had Deadly Ground and Crushing Attack to help it crush dishonour, but it still had issues with it. The fact remains that we're corrupt most of the time, and with that comes our biggest challenge: Surviving dishonour. There are some solutions out there (and we could probably use some more). You just have to want to use them.

If I could think of a FAIR way to give us better stated people as compensation for going second while also giving similar compensation to Scorpion Military, Matis and Crab (without making them way better than lower clans on that list), I'd love to see it. Courtesy is definitely a mechanic that could be explored to push that envelope even more. "Courtesy: Recruit XXX for 1 less gold" could be a useful, albeit a little bland method of alternative compensation (by bland I mean it lacks to inherent storyline implications of honour loss) for less obvious storyline evil or a card like this one. I still have little issue with known evil causing an honour loss in a storyline game, despite the implications for us, but I know that others feel much differently about that. Regardless, we appear to be stuck with honour losses on some of our Duelists, so let's try and judge other cards on how they would work in that deck rather than "@^&%* honour losses again!"

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Br'nn
Spider Clan* Ratling * Scout * Nonhuman * Chipped Tooth Tribe* One Tribe
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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:33 am 
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Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider Clan
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
Quote:
I'm going to bring up that at the start of Ivory you mentioned that cards like Slave pits were supposed to be our way of regaining tempo as spider, now your telling us that we have to meta by NOT running them. Honor loss is simply a stupid mechanic. Its one thing to have an insanely difficult time with dishonor, but the matchup could be winnable vs games where I give my opponent 1/4- half of their win condition simply by playing my own cards. Imagine if Mantis personalities caused your opponent to gain honor when they came into play, imagine their legit anger over the insanity fighting honor would be.


Slave Pits is still fine, because you never have to lose any honour with the card and its still a 2-for-2. House of Disgrace is an entirely different animal. That's why I vastly prefer Slave Pits to House. No initial honour hit. There's also nothing saying we have to run House of Disgrace in our decks. The tradeoff for super efficient gold is honour loss and has been since corrupt gold holdings and Black Markets. This is nothing new.

As for your Mantis analogy, I suppose it would depend on whether giving the opponent honour got you an additional gold or two value on your Mantis card. And whether you're including A Time For Action in your deck... ;)

Quote:
The sheer lack of entertainment and fun in this matchup is the biggest problem. If it was just a really hard matchup, with him having to hit -20 points to end me and me trying to out pace him, that would be cool, the 0 starting honor makes it a challenge. But no, its actually him having to hit -20 points while I'm having to walk on eggshells just to not lose faster. Design failed to make it interesting and fun by not just leaving the challenge at starting with 0 but with having to question whether you can play your own cards or will they simply make you lose faster.


I hate dishonour regardless of which clan I'm playing, so to imply that its only a negative experience out of Spider is funny because I find dishonour a negative experience all the time and wish it would die in a fire. Its also not particularly easy for Scorpion, Mantis or Crab, especially with those clans having some people with actual PH. But there are players that love it, such as the guy I lost to yesterday, who is still trying to make a Strict Scorpion dishonour deck work instead of exploring Scorpion military. That's why its still in the game.

Quote:
Meta is pathetic for the matchup, the real meta is simply speeding up your tempo, something that spider cant really do without giving the game to dishonor.


There are multiple options, including honour gaining holdings, Military Alliance, cards like Discretionary Valour (which is in Ornatov's posted Swarm deck), Followers and Items that gain honour, etc. While it was Arc, Randy ran 3 Secluded Shrines, Military Alliance and I believe 2 Carpenters in his deck that made top 8 in Seattle.

However, because I'm genuinely curious, what would your solution be? You want to increase Spider's tempo, tempo that appears to be doing just fine in Strict outside of dishonour matchups. How much can you ramp up Spider without doing the same with Scorpion, who only starts a single honour higher and also has mostly 0s and 1s for PH? What's the cutoff? Crab and Mantis are low enough to go second lots but maybe not Unicorn? Where does that ramp stop? Or is it only for Spider? Because while I definitely symphatize with the issue, being a Spider player myself, I do tend to also find that some of this is "I don't want to have to make the effort to fight my bad matchup" and also "I want to just play every good personality regardless of deck they're designed for even though other clans have to deal with honour requirements that keep them from doing that."

I concede that without any meta, we autolose to dishonour. Even with meta, we're in tough, although we're far better off in Strict with fewer static honour losses. I'm not saying there doesn't need to be some better options for us to help deal with it and fewer static honour losses for dishonour to use (which we've seen in Ivory and post-Ivory expansions, especially with regards to holding-based honour loss). But we hold our own in military matchups, and arguably are pretty good in Strict (and can we PLEASE stop with the "Spider is still horrible" stuff, because we clearly aren't in Strict). And we have pretty good force-to-gold and such to deal with honour. So that leaves one decktype. "I don't want to dilute my deck." Neither does that midgame military deck that takes an extra turn to ramp up so they run anti-Honour stuff. Neither does that Honour or Dishonour deck that has issues with Cavalry and runs Absent and Anti-Cav actions to deal with it.

If you want a better shot against dishonour, don't run House of Disgrace. Don't include Skeletal Troops. Don't repeatedly bring out Shiho, who isn't very good against dishonour anyway. Include Military Alliance, since you may be able to take at least a couple of provinces to gain some honour. Look at Carpenter Shrine. Heck, maybe you would be able to run Marimako and Takuan in your deck with some tweaks to the holdings. Running corrupt has ALWAYS had a price in the game. From day 1. Corrupt Crab Oni had Deadly Ground and Crushing Attack to help it crush dishonour, but it still had issues with it. The fact remains that we're corrupt most of the time, and with that comes our biggest challenge: Surviving dishonour. There are some solutions out there (and we could probably use some more). You just have to want to use them.

If I could think of a FAIR way to give us better stated people as compensation for going second while also giving similar compensation to Scorpion Military, Matis and Crab (without making them way better than lower clans on that list), I'd love to see it. Courtesy is definitely a mechanic that could be explored to push that envelope even more. "Courtesy: Recruit XXX for 1 less gold" could be a useful, albeit a little bland method of alternative compensation (by bland I mean it lacks to inherent storyline implications of honour loss) for less obvious storyline evil or a card like this one. I still have little issue with known evil causing an honour loss in a storyline game, despite the implications for us, but I know that others feel much differently about that. Regardless, we appear to be stuck with honour losses on some of our Duelists, so let's try and judge other cards on how they would work in that deck rather than "@^&%* honour losses again!"


As the guy who took top 4 in the Untapped tourney in strict I can tell you that its ONLY corrupt gold that got me there. The ability to leverage that to be able to regain tempo in my matches were the PRIMARY reason I made it as far as I did. If I cut down on that then I would not be able to win the games I did. ESPECIALLY if I tried to cut out corruption for Takuan or Marimako. I cant be told to remove the aspect that makes us good to meta an auto loss into a maybe not auto loss... that wont work, then I'm losing to military, we are THAT stretched. To meta dishonor in strict is to condemn ourselves against military. I have alot of experience in strict, I know what Spider is working with.

I shouldn't need to point you at last years track record for spider, both with and without corruption. We are not good until I see us actually perform in the kotei season, not strict which was a movement by the fanbase to abandon Emperor edition cards. I should point out that we are NOT the best in strict, that goes to Lion and Mantis by my experiences, both have fantastic decks. In the planned AEG arc format Spider was the pits. 20F arc is the "vision of AEG design" which means that their track record must be proved. When all the cards are shown and the resources laid on the table, then we can talk if spider is competitive. I can tell you now, nothing I have seen has made me confident Spider dueling has what it needs to win yet, even taking into account that sahara is on the field. But on the 27th we will have to figure it out.

Lets add into the picture that Sahara is only blue bugged... that means that these duelists are only under his protection for another year. They have NO long term value to us. They are cards with big old honor losses that will be nigh unplayable in Onix as their theme gets tossed out the window. I get to watch them develop as a theme just to watch them fail utterly when the sensei goes away.

As for compensation... we have courtesy... WHERE IS IT! There is endless heaps of praise for the concept yet none of our guys have it. WHY!?! Is it so they keep printing honor loss drawbacks to justify Sahara ignoring them which is because they keep printing honor loss drawbacks?... Is that why... making us play one particular special snowflake sensei instead of experimenting with other possible sensei like Aranai?

Courtesy should be a mechanic given to the lower honor clans in abundance, yet if we dont see it then design dropped the ball again.

I dont give a %$# about story implications... that is no excuse to give the customer something they clearly dont want, and no one wants this. Story line evil works when the one playing the bad guy doesnt suffer for playing his own bad stuff. Honor loss negation should be on the box, nothing since Ivory began has convinced me otherwise.

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"There is only ONE emperor worthy of the right to rule, I will never cease till he takes his rightful place"

Played Ide Doburu at the 2014 Winter Court.


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:46 am 
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Hello,

Quote:
TheItsyBitsySpider
I dont give a %$# about story implications... that is no excuse to give the customer something they clearly dont want, and no one wants this. Story line evil works when the one playing the bad guy doesnt suffer for playing his own bad stuff. Honor loss negation should be on the box, nothing since Ivory began has convinced me otherwise.


Ah yes I only can agree with that. Just give us back the honor loss negation on our stronghold. Maybe not the old which negated all honor losses but a version which negates all loses from our own cards (cards we have in the dynasty and fate deck).

This would also allow to reintroduce intresting dark virtues or special cards for the Spider clan with high honorloss to prevent missuse from other clans. Possible examples are things like
Paragons Strenght, path of honor and Glory or Determination (since allready have it as a keyword). Also we can get better peeps again since the honoloss would prevent mass usage in other decks.

another way is to give us better peeps without honorloss is that you just inverse the funktion of the honor requirement. On Spider cards it nolonger shows the minimum honor you have to have (blue fan) but the maxiumum honor you have to have (red fan) to play the card. So we can get some powerfull peeps without honor loss and without the danger that the other clans use them.


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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:52 am 
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While it's not the same thing, Crab are getting a 3/4 Samurai * Siege for 5g, with a bow through attachments action. Their drawback is having to discard a card to use his ability, and the bow only works if the Force is less than or equal to the FV, so......yeah.

He won't lose you the game against dishonor like this guy, but there'll be times where you can't use his ability. Now, other than Reserve, our guy doesn't have an ability.

It's really comparing apples and milk trucks, I know.

EDIT: Let me also add my concern that Sahara Sensei is only blue bugged. When that rotates out, we either have to get ANOTHER Sensei that protects us against Honor Loss on our duelists (or a more general one that keeps us from being punished for running our own guys), or these guys are dead useless. That's the flaw in saying 'well, you have to run the Sensei for these guys', what happens when the Sensei rotates out, but we've still got this poorly designed mechanic lingering on these guys?

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 Post subject: Re: [20F] Spider Personality: Daigotsu Hachiko
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:21 am 
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Yep, and it's not like the other, non base set sensei are only single year. Kuroko is a two year sensei but tetsuo isn't.

At least the ninja sensei will be able to be played in Onix.

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"There is only ONE emperor worthy of the right to rule, I will never cease till he takes his rightful place"

Played Ide Doburu at the 2014 Winter Court.


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