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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:30 am 
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Cambeul no Oni wrote:
BeastEG wrote:
Cambeul no Oni wrote:
Use that Duel with the Ronin, react with the Sensei then combine the two. Really Big Fear.


You have to annouce pumps in the interrupt phase so I don't believe that works since he gains the battle action after the duel, which is after the interrupts.


The way I read it, and I could be wrong:
Oneiyara Challenges someone, use Sensei interupt.
Oneiyara wins duel and does a Fear action equal to his Force combined with the Sensei Fear that is equal to his Force for a combine Fear of 6.


I was told that Fear pumps are done in the interrupt phase (just like how you have to Okura before the duel) which is why I was under the notion that you could not do it since by the time you gain the battle action, you will have already passed the interrupt phase :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:51 am 
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Combining does not work because the fear must come from different cards in the same unit.

IE Comprehensive Rules p47 on Combining wrote:
Combining starts with an original action that creates an attack effect from a card in a unit. As an Interrupt to that action, the player may use an ability from another card in the same unit that is appropriate to the phase and that creates another attack effect of the same kind.


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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:10 am 
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I was really hoping that we wouldn't get a dueling sensei. With the exeption of mobd and its accelerated gold, dueling decks in ivory strict have a hard time amassing province breaking force. You pay for the chi stat, often giving you ineffiecient personalities like daigotsu takahide or atsushi xp. Building a deck full of 6g/3f guys (like oniyiera) is not a good recipe for success, especially when always going last and no mechanics like conqueror in place to maintain tempo. Dueling also keeps us from being able to run a significant chunk of our existing good personalities because they have such abysmally low chi. So, unless they gave us much more efficient personalities or a bunch of printed conquerors, I'm calling this theme dead on arrival, just like Tetsuo/monks.

I also hate dueling with a passion so ymmv, salt added, and all that other stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:13 am 
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While I think it's pretty cool to have something that supports dueling, I'm not really excited by this card.

-It implies that Spider Duelists will continue to have printed honor losses, so i'll likely take an honor hit if i need to run a duelist in a non dueling deck.
-The interrupt does not help you win the duel and spider are severly lacking in the duelist and high chi departments
-The battle action granted by winning the duel isn't immediate so there is a chance you don't even get to use it

IMO, it's not worth the loss of province strength

I'f I was running a dueling deck, I'd much rather be able to play the Karmic Sensei and take the loss of GP to be able to manipulate my top deck better.


Last edited by itsybitsy on Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:41 am 
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I'm excited for Spider dueling and like the flavor of this sensei! It might seem underwhelming now, but let's wait for the new set to be released before getting too disappointed.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:58 pm 
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Dahawi wrote:
Quote:
...If it was a Fear action that got through followers...


That would certainly be nice, considering that we get nothing if we lose the duel. However you're hoping to have either killed or at least bowed the personality involved in the duel and there's enough ways to get past followers in order to target the other personalities.


The main issue I'm seeing is that you have to use Fear to bow out those guys who you can't duel because our chi is utter crap. If someone plays a follower on that guy you can't duel, then they straight up duel you to death.

I'm not saying it's a definite problem, but I've been testing dueling out of as many clans as I can (simply because I wanted to learn more about it) and I have to say that if your opponent drops a guy that you can't duel, you HAVE to have a back-up plan or you'll get shredded. This is why I put a heavy emphasis on having guys start at 4 chi because you need to be able to duel with naked guys. Also, there are plenty of decks that run high enough focus values that they will be willing to focus against you so you can't just assume everyone will say "Strike" and give up.

Looks like for Spider dueling, you'll have to run Tested Blade x3 and Bow or Ritual Blessing x3 (I say this without seeing 20F cards) because if you can't bow out someone you can't duel or hit with battle actions, you be dead. My biggest gripe about this is that it is HORRIBLY inefficient against non-military, which makes me sad :cry:

However, all of this is pretty much wild speculation as without seeing 20F, anything is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Unfortunately design has shown very little capability at making appropriate adjustments for under performing themes, especially when regarding spider. Look at our Monks, the personalities and actions pre-ivory base where Horrible. Set after set came out and the personalities and action suite continue to be garbage.

Personalities like atsushi and takahide don't set a good precedent, they don't make the cut in our current decks, and any deck relying on these types of personalities and personalities designed along the same paradigm are boned. Hopefully im proven wrong but in the meantime I'll be praying that our other theme (ninjas?) will be more competitive.


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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:13 am 
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Oh, God... am I a Precog? I never expected this card when I expanded Atsushi's backstory for WC4, but still I predicted it.

My thoughts:

First, Fear may have changed. If the rules now says "...target a follower or personality without unbowed followers..." Fear will work. If they change it so we can combine Fear/Ranged/Melee from the same card that will also help.

Second, the Interrupt can be triggered by Open/Limited Duels to give you another Battle action for your attack.

Third, the decreased honor loss allows us to play any duelists they print with 2 honor loss to full effect.

Fourth, Open/Limited Duels tend to be good ways of gaining honor, this deck may have strong natural resistance to dishonor.

Fifth, our current duelists are comparable to those of the Crane.

Weapons that should be considered for a Spider dueling deck:

Dotanuki
Singing Blade
Heirloom Tanto
Uguisu
Tested Blade


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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:48 pm 
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Love the theme, and like where this may be going. That does not only reduce coming into play honor losses, but any action performed by the duelists. So maybe a bully dueling theme cards come back? I would love to see Poisoned Weapon again..... Kharmic Strike even? A duelist who comes back as undead if he dies in a duel? A guy can dream can't he?


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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:48 pm 
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i3ullseye wrote:
Love the theme, and like where this may be going. That does not only reduce coming into play honor losses, but any action performed by the duelists. So maybe a bully dueling theme cards come back? I would love to see Poisoned Weapon again..... Kharmic Strike even? A duelist who comes back as undead if he dies in a duel? A guy can dream can't he?

Kharmic Strike was in the Ivory Edition base set. Another Time was in The Currency of War, so we know that'll be in Twenty Festivals.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:00 am 
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i3ullseye wrote:
but any action performed by the duelists.


I'll have to check, but... It may only prevent losses from the duelists themselves and any actions granted to them. A duel strategy that targets them would still cause an honor loss.


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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:10 am 
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Sparks already broke me heart on this one. It really only stops the coming into play costs. Duels come from the fate cards, not the duelist so Honor loss duels aren't avoided.

Now listen, I think Spider dueling is an awesome idea.
But the sensei is pretty mediocre.

The honor loss prevention trait is terrible, no matter how I see.

As I said on the AEG forums...

Quote:
The fact that as of right now it ONLY effects Atsushi means 2 things,

either they wont print more honor loss spuds, knowing that the fan base VEHEMENTLY HATES this mechanic and thus the apparent buff is a waste

or

They print a bunch more with honor loss to justify the trait and Spider gets a series of personalities shoe horned into one specific deck and are never considered for anything else, like how Susumu are abysmal outside of their deck, which has gotten no support for its clout mechanic since Kuroko sensei was release.

The second option is even more abysmal when you realize that the duelists would be around through the first year of onix... when the sensei is gone meaning that they all have drawbacks and the sensei supposed to help them is long gone, meaning they have no long term value.


Fs we dont get to take advantage of the trait then we are wasting a trait that could have been there. If we get a bunch of honor loss spuds then we lose in the long run when the sensei falls away in Onix and we are stuck with the honor loss bodies, which would be terrible.

I like Atsushi... the experienced one is stat wise one of the best duelists in Ivory right now, but it looks like they intend to make us severely pay for it so I really doubt it will be that good.

I would rather run Aranai and have access to tactician actions instead of a single fear 3-5.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:28 am 
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The only potential fix could be that once we hit Onyx Edition, we will get honor loss protection back on our SH

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:21 pm 
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pangu wrote:
Personalities like atsushi and takahide don't set a good precedent, they don't make the cut in our current decks, and any deck relying on these types of personalities and personalities designed along the same paradigm are boned. Hopefully im proven wrong but in the meantime I'll be praying that our other theme (ninjas?) will be more competitive.


Its a big leap from not making the cut in our current decks (which is something I'm not convinced of, unless its the fact that they aren't am easy fit into swarm that is the reason) to not fitting into a dueling deck, a deck that they are designed for. Atsushi was a welcome addition to the Aranai Sensei Dueling deck I had a while back and Takahide would happily slide into it as well pre-20F. 3 chi is pretty common for non-unique Duelists in every clan throughout Ivory thus far, and both of these guys come with a built in battle action (and Atsushi has Expendable, too). This isn't the era of "all my Duelists have high chi", so the fact that you need to put a Weapon on them to get the most mileage out of them in Ivory isn't anything new.

Now, if the question is whether this is better or worse that just using Aranai Sensei, that's a whole other conversation. An extra battle action that might be Fear 5 or 6 vs. the ability to use The Sun Returns is one for test games to determine. But pointing to Atsushi and Takahide as the reasons the Sensei and Dueling deck will suck is a stretch.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:38 pm 
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Cards like Atsushi and Takahide are irrelevent.

Its cards like Ogre bushi and the fallen duelists along with Kokujin that mattered in Ivory Arc.

I LOVED tactical dueling. Death of the winds was insanely brutal for that build pivotal by far.

Dueling In Ivory was defined by the fallen duelists, who had high chi but also high force, which makes the difference.

I can take an Ogre Bushi, throw a weapon on him and be province breaking on every clan except sensei dragon. THAT MATTERS. Having to buy 2-3 3F spuds, then slapping weapons on them, and THEN swinging is a much bigger issue.

Sahara should have turned a duel into a duel of force, that really would have made it a good sensei.

Right now Spider dueling is a fear midrange deck that abuses duels to get a few major kills through Weakness Exposed and Come One at a Time in strict.

Its not TERRIBLE, because me top 4ing the Strict untapped tournament with Spider corrupt midrange shows that midrange CAN work, this is just a new method to effect that concept.

Spider has a few advantages, one of them being that all of our duelists, minus the ogre, have battle actions, which is better then crane has. I think we can beat other dueling decks due to our access to great fear actions to shut down other duelist clan. We also have Kageto... that could matter.

I cant rule on it until I see the new duels and duelists in 20F... pretty much this.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:02 pm 
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Between Kageto and possibly Weapon Artist, we should almost never be without a Weapon, and that doesn't even factor in the running of actual Weapons (Tested Blade, for example, seems made for a deck that has multiple Fear actions). Most of our guys should be sitting at 4 chi minimum (and around 5F) when it matters. It will definitely be fun to see how the deck rolls out.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:48 pm 
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What I hope to see next are Spider Duelists with their own Fear actions, and the return of good old Private Dojo. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:59 pm 
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Ji-Han wrote:
What I hope to see next are Spider Duelists with their own Fear actions, and the return of good old Private Dojo. :twisted:


that would be fucking bonkers. i definitely support it.

Shahai Kirisu wrote:
Between Kageto and possibly Weapon Artist, we should almost never be without a Weapon, and that doesn't even factor in the running of actual Weapons (Tested Blade, for example, seems made for a deck that has multiple Fear actions). Most of our guys should be sitting at 4 chi minimum (and around 5F) when it matters. It will definitely be fun to see how the deck rolls out.


i'm always very wary of decks that depend on too many cards. i mean, i'm gonna do it anyway just so i can play spider duelists, but i've learned through hard experience that if you have to play two cards for every one your opponent needs to get your engine going, you're behind the curve, and for a clan that is already behind the curve from the second the strongholds flip...

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:50 pm 
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I'm severely hard pressed to believe Weapon Artist is an efficient choice for us. Investing 7 gold for 6 gold isn't all that bad (I guess) but to use a 7g investment for a +2/+1 weapon seems like such a waste. Especially since most games will be determined by T5 at the latest, it has such a minor window of impact. Throw in going 2nd as cielago point's out, and that's some hard stuff to contend with.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:31 pm 
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BeastEG wrote:
I'm severely hard pressed to believe Weapon Artist is an efficient choice for us. Investing 7 gold for 6 gold isn't all that bad (I guess) but to use a 7g investment for a +2/+1 weapon seems like such a waste. Especially since most games will be determined by T5 at the latest, it has such a minor window of impact. Throw in going 2nd as cielago point's out, and that's some hard stuff to contend with.


It is a waste, Kageko is all you need. Our holdings will need to be corrupt gold, fastest scheme possible to afford teh weapons and bodies we need.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:19 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
3 chi is pretty common for non-unique Duelists in every clan throughout Ivory thus far, and both of these guys come with a built in battle action (and Atsushi has Expendable, too). This isn't the era of "all my Duelists have high chi", so the fact that you need to put a Weapon on them to get the most mileage out of them in Ivory isn't anything new.


I was curious about the numbers here, so i dug into it.

The only non-champion duelist thats 20F legal with more than 3 chi is Mirumoto Touya, who also happens to be nonunique, so she's pretty badass (plus she's got a fear effect. dang. can we corrupt her?). There are 13 with 4 or higher in Ivory. Mostly crane and dragon, the clans with dueling themes, plus a few fallen randos. so i think what we might hazard to guess here is that based on the info we have, and looking at ivory, its probably not yet worth getting worked up over our duelists' chi. we probably won't get as many as crane, but if we keep rough pace with dragon, and get a few with decent printed abilities, i think we're gonna be okay there.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:51 pm 
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Ji-Han wrote:
What I hope to see next are Spider Duelists with their own Fear actions, and the return of good old Private Dojo. :twisted:


Ok, if this showed up... bow we could talk. Then spider dueling would have some teeth. Thematic and all else!

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:47 am 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
Shahai Kirisu wrote:
3 chi is pretty common for non-unique Duelists in every clan throughout Ivory thus far, and both of these guys come with a built in battle action (and Atsushi has Expendable, too). This isn't the era of "all my Duelists have high chi", so the fact that you need to put a Weapon on them to get the most mileage out of them in Ivory isn't anything new.


I was curious about the numbers here, so i dug into it.

The only non-champion duelist thats 20F legal with more than 3 chi is Mirumoto Touya, who also happens to be nonunique, so she's pretty badass (plus she's got a fear effect. dang. can we corrupt her?). There are 13 with 4 or higher in Ivory. Mostly crane and dragon, the clans with dueling themes, plus a few fallen randos. so i think what we might hazard to guess here is that based on the info we have, and looking at ivory, its probably not yet worth getting worked up over our duelists' chi. we probably won't get as many as crane, but if we keep rough pace with dragon, and get a few with decent printed abilities, i think we're gonna be okay there.


I would not look at the duelist keyword and just look at overall bodies. "Duelist" is kind of a trap keyword in IE because if you are tying non-duelists in terms of focus value, your deck isn't good enough at dueling. Plus, think about the mirror match, a 3-chi duelist still can't challenge a 4-chi non-duelist. This is why many dueling decks don't even bother with isolating bodies with the duelist keyword and just usually maximize chi.

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:51 am 
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BeastEG wrote:
daigotsu cielago wrote:
Shahai Kirisu wrote:
3 chi is pretty common for non-unique Duelists in every clan throughout Ivory thus far, and both of these guys come with a built in battle action (and Atsushi has Expendable, too). This isn't the era of "all my Duelists have high chi", so the fact that you need to put a Weapon on them to get the most mileage out of them in Ivory isn't anything new.


I was curious about the numbers here, so i dug into it.

The only non-champion duelist thats 20F legal with more than 3 chi is Mirumoto Touya, who also happens to be nonunique, so she's pretty badass (plus she's got a fear effect. dang. can we corrupt her?). There are 13 with 4 or higher in Ivory. Mostly crane and dragon, the clans with dueling themes, plus a few fallen randos. so i think what we might hazard to guess here is that based on the info we have, and looking at ivory, its probably not yet worth getting worked up over our duelists' chi. we probably won't get as many as crane, but if we keep rough pace with dragon, and get a few with decent printed abilities, i think we're gonna be okay there.


I would not look at the duelist keyword and just look at overall bodies. "Duelist" is kind of a trap keyword in IE because if you are tying non-duelists in terms of focus value, your deck isn't good enough at dueling. Plus, think about the mirror match, a 3-chi duelist still can't challenge a 4-chi non-duelist. This is why many dueling decks don't even bother with isolating bodies with the duelist keyword and just usually maximize chi.

Yup. You know what happens when a Dragon player puts Tamori Heisenberg in front of you with a COAAT in his hand?

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 Post subject: Re: [20 Festivals] Sensei: Sahara Sensei
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:53 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
Yup. You know what happens when a Dragon player puts Tamori Heisenberg in front of you with a COAAT in his hand?


You buy the blue stuff and make poor life decisions?

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