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 Post subject: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:52 am 
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Open: Bow a target Shadowlands Personality.


*sigh*


Edit: Changed to link, didn't mean to include image inline.

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:29 am 
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The only redeeming fact about this card is that it does seem to be further evidence that we're going to have a fairly massive return of shadowlands stuff with whatever the dark thingamajig is coming

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:54 am 
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At least it's not as game breaking as some of the anti-shadowlands meta we've seen in the past. Most shadowlands decks will be packing a good amount of straighten tech.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:34 am 
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Well its narrower and less devastating than the purge, so hopefully less likely to see play. but wow, still with the shadowlands hate...

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:50 am 
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rogueaccount wrote:
Well its narrower and less devastating than the purge, so hopefully less likely to see play. but wow, still with the shadowlands hate...


at present, theres not really enough shadowlands beef for every deck in every environment to run hate, so this remains a narrowly useful card. against probably 90% of the other 8 clans' decks this card is a dud. back in the day, when shadowlands horde was up against everyone, it was assumed that at a tournament you had to run the hate, but thats not necessarily the case. will it be again? who can tell...

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:45 am 
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Currently, there's no reason to run this, as it's narrow meta against only a handful of decks, one of which (Spider) hasn't proven to be a real, consistent threat at the top tables. No Kharmic on this means in the majority of your matchups, this is a dead card.

If Spider or some corrupt deck starts winning a bunch though, and becomes something you'll very likely have to beat in order to win at the top tables, then here's some easy meta for a keyword Design keeps giving us that has only negative effects.

I'd still love to hear an explanation why we of all the Clans continually get saddled with a keyword that has no positive value, only drawbacks, and we get no extra compensation for it.

Mind you, I know the answer: 'flavor', the thing that should never EVER take precedence over good design, but all too often does in l5r.

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:22 am 
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
Currently, there's no reason to run this, as it's narrow meta against only a handful of decks, one of which (Spider) hasn't proven to be a real, consistent threat at the top tables. No Kharmic on this means in the majority of your matchups, this is a dead card.

If Spider or some corrupt deck starts winning a bunch though, and becomes something you'll very likely have to beat in order to win at the top tables, then here's some easy meta for a keyword Design keeps giving us that has only negative effects.

I'd still love to hear an explanation why we of all the Clans continually get saddled with a keyword that has no positive value, only drawbacks, and we get no extra compensation for it.

Mind you, I know the answer: 'flavor', the thing that should never EVER take precedence over good design, but all too often does in l5r.


i'm really, REALLY hoping that we get some shadowland mechanics if not in 20f then in Onyx. i mean, ideally something along the lines of obsidian halls, but i'm not getting my hopes up. something though would be good. we seem to be headed into a villainous direction (what with corrupting everyone else's stuff) so it stands to reason we'll need some new tools to support that.

this is all, of course, assuming that design actually makes the course changes they've promised. fool me... well i guess 5 years or more... yeah...

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:38 am 
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And another subtle reminder from the design team to switch clans.... *slow clap* thank you design *slow clap* thank you, good job*slow clap*

Well it seems like spider is playing by the same rules as everyone yet again with a purely negative trait, lackluster to mediocre personalities (atsuchi I'm looking at you) and a bad dishonor match up.

Hope this proves false and we get AWESOME personalities with awesome abilities if they get shadowlands or honor loss. Because I'm getting real tired of this s....

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:25 pm 
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This card is pretty terrible (as it has been in every environment it has been legal in), too narrow of an ability added to low focus - essentially unplayable even if Spider are great. There already exist far better options for people who want to strengthen their deck against Spider decks that have nothing to do with the Shadowlands trait, and which have the benefit of being useful cards in many more matchups (though are far less silver bullety).

To me this really just seems like a fun promo card that allows them to show off some story flavour without actually impacting the game in any real way.

Definitely agree with the sentiment about wanting to see a cool shadowlands beasties deck at some point in 20F though. There are already some good ones from the Ivory sets and I do miss that sort of deck. It feels like they have been warming up to *something* in this vein, but I feel like its less likely to be built in to Spider than it is to be some sort of neutral sensei or stronghold.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:37 am 
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I played Shadowlands back in Jade and I have to say, Shadowlands has it easier today. Having to slot three cards fate (among all the other meta we had to run) and one dynasty just to avoid Iris Festival and hope that I would be able to Avoid Fate and win within the time it pops again was a pain. Or Bitter, the destroyer of worlds. Every dueling deck ran that but Dark Lords Favor usually took care of that. Show Me Your Stance, Test of Honor (Imperial was personality, unlike lotus that changed to human personality), Evil Feeds Upon Itself, The Return of Fu Leng, the list can go on and on. Indeed, we have it much easier today.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:43 am 
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Daigotsu Hoturi wrote:
I played Shadowlands back in Jade and I have to say, Shadowlands has it easier today. Having to slot three cards fate (among all the other meta we had to run) and one dynasty just to avoid Iris Festival and hope that I would be able to Avoid Fate and win within the time it pops again was a pain. Or Bitter, the destroyer of worlds. Every dueling deck ran that but Dark Lords Favor usually took care of that. Show Me Your Stance, Test of Honor (Imperial was personality, unlike lotus that changed to human personality), Evil Feeds Upon Itself, The Return of Fu Leng, the list can go on and on. Indeed, we have it much easier today.


i only showed up in gold, but i feel like the counterexample is that we had a lot other SUPER potent tools, the most obvious of which was we were immune completely to one whole decktype to which we have been an autoloss for most of the last few sets (dishonor), and we also had a much stronger military presence. so it was okay that everyone had tools targeting us, because we could wreck face in a lot of situations even if they hit their meta.

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:58 pm 
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Daigotsu Hoturi wrote:
I played Shadowlands back in Jade and I have to say, Shadowlands has it easier today. Having to slot three cards fate (among all the other meta we had to run) and one dynasty just to avoid Iris Festival and hope that I would be able to Avoid Fate and win within the time it pops again was a pain. Or Bitter, the destroyer of worlds. Every dueling deck ran that but Dark Lords Favor usually took care of that. Show Me Your Stance, Test of Honor (Imperial was personality, unlike lotus that changed to human personality), Evil Feeds Upon Itself, The Return of Fu Leng, the list can go on and on. Indeed, we have it much easier today.


You can't compare the game at different points like that at all. There's no comparison at all. Shadowlands back in the day, had compensation for having the taint. Today, there is nothing. No compensation for having that keyword at all. The only thing the shadowlands keyword is good for is all negative. Back in the day, shadowlands had great force to gold ratio. Today, the same ratio as everyone else... except with shadowlands taint. So in reality, shadowlands have it MUCH more difficult today than they EVER did back in Jade. By a long shot.

Not saying this card will be run, but I can tell you that if spider start to be even remotely consistent and good, this card will find a few spots and that's just stupid to have. Maybe if there was meta cards for other keywords like this, it wouldn't be too much of a big deal, but design finds it necessary to only single out the spider clan when printing up meta cards like this. If there was a card that bowed a courtier or tactician, people would freak out. But since it's shadowlands, it's all ok to have. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:58 pm 
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I used to be bummed about all the shadowlands hate cards, but now I'm wondering if they have all been leading up to the 2015 kotei season. Are people going to run anti-shadowlands meta just to protect their icons from being corrupted? Are more players going to try running Spider so they have a chance to corrupt other clan icons? I'm kind of excited to see what happens.

On the other hand, the shadowlands hate cards especially suck for us outside of kotei events. We don't get any special prize for wining casual games in an environment that can be extra challenging.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:38 pm 
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Sparks wrote:
Not saying this card will be run, but I can tell you that if spider start to be even remotely consistent and good, this card will find a few spots and that's just stupid to have. Maybe if there was meta cards for other keywords like this, it wouldn't be too much of a big deal, but design finds it necessary to only single out the spider clan when printing up meta cards like this. If there was a card that bowed a courtier or tactician, people would freak out. But since it's shadowlands, it's all ok to have. :roll:


I have to disagree that it will be run even if Spider end up being really good because it is really bad Spider meta. Half our guys aren't even Shadowlands to start with, and it is an utterly dead card with no useful secondary function in non Spider matches (low focus, no courage or kharmic, no secondary weaker effect). The only way I can see this even being considered for decks is if they start spreading a lot of taint around all of the clans and it becomes a key part of multiple decks.

Also if they printed the exact same card with Courtier, Ninja, Tactician, Shugenja, Monk... essentially anything other than Samurai that card just will not be run unless it has a secondary effect as there are already better more generic cards that make decks stronger against various matchups whilst still being useful in others.

Everyone is freaking out over nothing.. again.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:13 pm 
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Daigotsu G wrote:
Everyone is freaking out over nothing.. again.

Not really. It seems to me they are more annoyed that despite taint being a semi-perfectly legal story "affliction" design keeps making cards to hit it as though it were a kill on sight offense.

But if it is solely thematic there are ways to target other clan themewords. What happens to a tactician in a wild card change of plans situation, or a cavalry being taken down by a no-dachi? How about a sudden storm toppling a kobune?

But they have not been printing things like that lately.

Their point seems more that we are the ones being left out of the game when we have people designed not to interact together, cards that hit only us, or get a boon for targeting us, and generally being very limited in what we can recruit from outside our clan while our guys can sell out like they are abandoning ship.

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:01 pm 
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Daigotsu G wrote:
Sparks wrote:
Not saying this card will be run, but I can tell you that if spider start to be even remotely consistent and good, this card will find a few spots and that's just stupid to have. Maybe if there was meta cards for other keywords like this, it wouldn't be too much of a big deal, but design finds it necessary to only single out the spider clan when printing up meta cards like this. If there was a card that bowed a courtier or tactician, people would freak out. But since it's shadowlands, it's all ok to have. :roll:


I have to disagree that it will be run even if Spider end up being really good because it is really bad Spider meta. Half our guys aren't even Shadowlands to start with, and it is an utterly dead card with no useful secondary function in non Spider matches (low focus, no courage or kharmic, no secondary weaker effect). The only way I can see this even being considered for decks is if they start spreading a lot of taint around all of the clans and it becomes a key part of multiple decks.

Also if they printed the exact same card with Courtier, Ninja, Tactician, Shugenja, Monk... essentially anything other than Samurai that card just will not be run unless it has a secondary effect as there are already better more generic cards that make decks stronger against various matchups whilst still being useful in others.

Everyone is freaking out over nothing.. again.


And that seems to be exactly what people said about Purge...

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:21 pm 
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To be fair though, Purge was a far more monstrous card than this one is. I'm not too concerned about it popping up in decks ATM but it's always lingering there.

I still agree with the majority that it sucks that Shadowlands has become a solely negative trait.

We'll have to see how it shapes up. What I wouldn't give for Red Crane Dojo right about now? Just laugh at anyone who tries to run Shadowlands meta!

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:07 pm 
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I think it is less detrimental than Purge, because Purge was widely ran to deal with a different deck and we were caught in a sort of meta riptide. This is a piece of meta that is solely silver bullet for Spider, making it more narrow in function. It's presence makes me suspect we will be seeing more monsters and oni and SL stuff coming up, which would make it useful meta for corrupt decks if those decks become particularly worrisome.

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:54 am 
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Shinkirou wrote:
But if it is solely thematic there are ways to target other clan themewords. What happens to a tactician in a wild card change of plans situation, or a cavalry being taken down by a no-dachi? How about a sudden storm toppling a kobune?
But they have not been printing things like that lately.


As I pointed out in my post these cards printed identically to Shadowlands Sickness would be every bit as terrible and unplayable because of their narrow focus.
But beyond this specific card ability, if you look back 2 sets you will find a card called Victory Through Deference, which in comparison to Shadowlands Sickness, has a better effect, secondary effects, cycles itself and messes with.. Tactician, Cavalry and Naval. Granted it doesn't specifically have any of those keywords printed on it, but if you want to meta any of those keywords.. boom.

There is actually very little anti Shadowlands stuff in the environment once the pre Ivory sets rotate out. It is limited to some kickers on a small number of cards (I count 5 in the entire Strict legal card pool, two of which are unique).

Shinkirou wrote:
Their point seems more that we are the ones being left out of the game when we have people designed not to interact together, cards that hit only us, or get a boon for targeting us, and generally being very limited in what we can recruit from outside our clan while our guys can sell out like they are abandoning ship.


This is very hyperbolic and really doesn't stand up to an actual examination of the card pool. Every clan has a few cards that hit them harder with kickers on random personalities and every clan has to make honor requirement based choices on who they include in their decks (except perhaps Scorpion). Yes we technically have less personalities that we can recruit from outside our faction, but we are not alone in that (all the low honor clans are limited in this in one way or another), and frankly why would we want to? Our personality base is really strong already (for 20 Festivals, we did get dudded a bit in the pre Ivory sets). There isn't really much from other clans that I'd be interested in running for an extra 2 gold anyway. The only unaligned that we might want to use that we can't is Komori Taruko, which is a bummer, but really, its *one* card.

Yeah we've had some underpowered stuff through Emperor, but that is no longer true from Ivory Edition onwards.

Sparks wrote:
And that seems to be exactly what people said about Purge...


Obviously a shitty highly restrictive open bow card is in all ways comparable to a card that kill two personalities as a limited action and which is key meta for a really strong theme that ran over multiple clans hence seeing play... (and for the record I also hated Purge's existence and always thought that it was inherently unfair - if you go back and look at the deck I posted for my 4th place at the Melbourne Kotei I was running 3x Absolution and thoroughly hated that I had to - but Shadowlands Sickness... lol).

BeastEG wrote:
I still agree with the majority that it sucks that Shadowlands has become a solely negative trait.


This I do agree with, its a real shame that there aren't really any cards that key off having the trait anymore. Tainted fun is one of the reasons I started playing Shadowlands in the first place (Evil Portents was my favourite card back in the day), and I really miss the flavour of those cards. I think with the new card design paradigm of effect plus kicker there is some opportunity for cards with that flavour to exist without over dedicating the card pool to tainted cards that no other clan can use. Hopefully we will see some in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:20 am 
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My compliant with this card is I feel it doesn't need to exist. If it does end up seeing use, then why does there need to be silver bullet against this one particular keyword when so many other keywords don't suffer the same fate? If it doesn't end up seeing use, whether because of being too narrow, or better options, or whatever, then why even make the card to begin with? It seems like a throwaway card for story reasons that alienates a single clan which isn't fun.


As far as cards that have a kicker against shadowlands, while I am okay with it, I would much rather the Shadowlands kicker be a rulebook effect and not a card effect. I have mentioned before, but I feel Shadowlands taint keying off of your current honor would be a way of addressing several current thematic complaints and weaknesses of the clan. If say at any negative honor your Shadowlands cards gain +1F. At -10 honor your Shadowlands get expandable and at -20 honor you can recruit Shadowlands cards from your provinces and discard pile as an open action. Thematically, it is showing that Spider is holding back the potential the taint provides to play nice with the Empire. In game, it turns honor loss on our personalities from a solely negative effect into a potential upside. It would essentially give Spider an extra turn against dishonor as they drop you below 20, and you are getting an entire dynasty phase worth of bodies you wouldn't normally have access to -- strengthening our worst matchup.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:38 pm 
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Perhaps maybe the taint is coming back. Consider Yogo Chijin. Bloodspeaker. Where there is a bloodspeaker, there is handing out of the shadowlands trait. With the chi dropping scorpion ninjas and now a bloodspeaker there may be a chance for that theme to come back where you hand out shadowlands and ruin the other players day.

Shadowland's have it rough today, comical for sure. The trait has no benefits indeed and lack the utility of gold to force ratio, but they also have abilities today, that do stuff. Decent stuff. The costs are high now to run them (honor loss, not trait) so most don't see the light of day. That is my opinion of the matter. I eagerly await to see if a sensei can correct this.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:15 am 
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Wow the 1st thing promo for 2015 is a (I am not pointing here) spider meta....... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:34 pm 
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Daigotsu Hoturi wrote:
Perhaps maybe the taint is coming back. Consider Yogo Chijin. Bloodspeaker. Where there is a bloodspeaker, there is handing out of the shadowlands trait.


Don't forget about Tairao. He uses the threat of handing out Shadowlands as part of discouraging opponents from assigning. The force/chi penalty is the bigger threat, but at least the flavor is there. I think it would fit with the 2015 kotei theme of corrupting clan icons if Spider got some cards that corrupt personalities by giving them the Shadowlands trait.


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 Post subject: Re: [Event Support Q1] Shadowlands Sickness
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:25 pm 
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robohobbit wrote:
Daigotsu Hoturi wrote:
Perhaps maybe the taint is coming back. Consider Yogo Chijin. Bloodspeaker. Where there is a bloodspeaker, there is handing out of the shadowlands trait.


Don't forget about Tairao. He uses the threat of handing out Shadowlands as part of discouraging opponents from assigning. The force/chi penalty is the bigger threat, but at least the flavor is there. I think it would fit with the 2015 kotei theme of corrupting clan icons if Spider got some cards that corrupt personalities by giving them the Shadowlands trait.


This. Note that the card doesn't say "printed shadowlands", just "Shadowlands". In fact, a quick Oracle search seems to turn up most shadowlands hate looks like that. Maybe we could try some sort of "corrupt and hate" sort of thing. Unfortunately, a lot of the hate seems to be out of clan guys, and the only way I can see to give your opponents the taint is Tairao, but it is interesting to think about.


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