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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:42 pm 
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Br'nn
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Saramis wrote:
Its a rather poor strategy to market the holiday pack by previewing a personality like that to actually sell to spider players. Whats worse is the fact that nobody at AEG caught that it was a bad idea, showing how little they understand or care about player concerns. If there was going to be something that reduces or negates honor losses wouldnt they come out and just say we hear you all loud and clear dont worry about that guys honor loss? Im now more concerned about the next half of the arc for spider instead of looking forward to it


If you're going to fixate on the honour loss, which matters in two matchups albeit bad ones from past history, then you definitely think its poor strategy. If you think of him as a 4/4 Duelist with a built-in Singing Blade and increasable Fear battle action, he looks pretty good. He'll be the lynchpin of any Spider Dueling deck I make, and he'll be a good lynchpin.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:15 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:

If you're going to fixate on the honour loss, which matters in two matchups albeit bad ones from past history, then you definitely think its poor strategy.



Nope, it matters in a LOT of other things, not the least of which is the dishonor match up. This guy makes so I can't consider using other in clan peeps in the deck... like at all. If I want to run Yanada in a deck with him, yeah no. Not gonna happen. It's so stupid that we have to deal with this and NO OTHER CLAN HAS TO! NONE!

Design just needs to get their shit together! Period!

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:58 pm 
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He's not meant to be used with Yanada. They're for different decks. Much the same way that clans with above starting honour Personalities affect their other Personality choices, our honour losses affect ours.

"I want to run Doji Hoturi from Coils, so I need to gain honour. I'll put in that 1PH Duelist from Ivory base...oh wait."

"I want to run Togashi Mitsu and Fallen guys...well that's not going to work."

Do I need to go on?

Complain about him in the dishonour matchup all you want and I can probably give you that one, but complaining about not being able to run personalities with Honour Reqs because you want to run honour losses continues to be a flawed complaint. The honour losses are for just that very thing, since we don't have ways to gain honour. It keeps cards that aren't necessarily supposed to be in certain decks, like Yanada and especially Takuan, from landing in them because of our otherwise unchanging honour stat. It forces you to make deckbuilding choices rather than just playing the best cards from all our decktypes. It might even show that they actually are aware of what they're doing.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:34 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
Saramis wrote:
Its a rather poor strategy to market the holiday pack by previewing a personality like that to actually sell to spider players. Whats worse is the fact that nobody at AEG caught that it was a bad idea, showing how little they understand or care about player concerns. If there was going to be something that reduces or negates honor losses wouldnt they come out and just say we hear you all loud and clear dont worry about that guys honor loss? Im now more concerned about the next half of the arc for spider instead of looking forward to it


If you're going to fixate on the honour loss, which matters in two matchups albeit bad ones from past history, then you definitely think its poor strategy. If you think of him as a 4/4 Duelist with a built-in Singing Blade and increasable Fear battle action, he looks pretty good. He'll be the lynchpin of any Spider Dueling deck I make, and he'll be a good lynchpin.



Nobody is complaining about a 4F 4C duelist with singing blade... that will be fine, if there is dueling support then we will probably have a competent theme. Daigotsu's being a dueling theme has never been out of character.

Struggling with an unpopular mechanic that hurts, with no clear benefit... THAT'S the issue.

I run my decks with the dishonor holdings and the honor loss personalities, I can fight military, in fact in strict its REALLY potent but dishonor auto losses are the most un-enjoyable experiences... at least in emperor I wasn't helping them win and the games were sort of close.

If they simply made our honor loss personalities like kokujin's trait you would NEVER see this reaction and it would all be smiles. This is how much spider players hate this mechanic... its venom and a sign of the most hated aspect of Ivory.

Shahai Kirisu wrote:
He's not meant to be used with Yanada. They're for different decks. Much the same way that clans with above starting honour Personalities affect their other Personality choices, our honour losses affect ours.

"I want to run Doji Hoturi from Coils, so I need to gain honour. I'll put in that 1PH Duelist from Ivory base...oh wait."

"I want to run Togashi Mitsu and Fallen guys...well that's not going to work."

Do I need to go on?

Complain about him in the dishonour matchup all you want and I can probably give you that one, but complaining about not being able to run personalities with Honour Reqs because you want to run honour losses continues to be a flawed complaint. The honour losses are for just that very thing, since we don't have ways to gain honour. It keeps cards that aren't necessarily supposed to be in certain decks, like Yanada and especially Takuan, from landing in them because of our otherwise unchanging honour stat. It forces you to make deckbuilding choices rather than just playing the best cards from all our decktypes. It might even show that they actually are aware of what they're doing.


So yeah... in this they point out that Yanada is SUPPOSED to be able to be splashed in...

Quote:
Some of them, like this card (Yanada), will also tie into the Spider Clan’s theme of Fear, allowing them to be more effectively used as support in military decks, giving you more deckbuilding options.


So I think the "not intended to be in military" is a bit out of line... I mean, its not like other clans have to worry about LOSING honor and dropping below honor requirements just for playing their good personalities... normally they have to proclaim up to them... you know, deckbuilding options ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Which is exactly what I'm saying when I'm comparing our honour losses to their proclaiming up. We have to avoid honour losses the same way they have to proclaim up for some of their people. Its a similar costing mechanism, just keyed to our clan differently. We have to make the same choices they do. You want to run Yanada in your deck? Fine, no Shiho or now Atsushi XP. You want to be super-corrupt guy? No Susumu Courtiers for you. A Crane deck that wants Hoturi isn't loading up on 2PH Scouts to get there, and we aren't loading up on Saido, Shiho and Atsushi if we want to play Takuan and Yanada.

Anyway, this is beating a dead horse. We'll continue to go back and forth over this issue with no real resolution. I've stated my opinion on Atsushi XP. He's a pretty good card. Maybe not apparent now without more of 20 Festivals revealed, but he'll see play, at least in a deck where he'll shine. I'm definitely going to find the cash for this Holiday Pack.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
He's not meant to be used with Yanada. They're for different decks. Much the same way that clans with above starting honour Personalities affect their other Personality choices, our honour losses affect ours.


Well color me shocked that Yanada isn't for a Fear deck! Wait... What is Atsushi's ability again? Oh yeah!

Don't be dumb, Chris. People of other clans don't have any problem running people with above box honor. It doesn't really hinder their deck construction or creativity in any way. This guy does! In a VERY negative way.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:58 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
A Crane deck that wants Hoturi isn't loading up on 2PH Scouts to get there, and we aren't loading up on Saido, Shiho and Atsushi if we want to play Takuan and Yanada.


Difference is that loading up on crane scouts doesnt disqualify you from dropping Hoturi, merely limits how much honor you have to gain to drop him, not completely offs your chances of dropping him period, and most certainly doesnt negatively harm you for it.

And for the sake of flavor... the fact that the DUELING CHAMPION OF THE SPIDER CLAN, known only in lore for defending the honor of our COURTIERS, is a complete negative mechanically for the deck by FLAVOR he should be in is a failure in of itself, no way to slice it there. You can point to 20F right now all you want but it doesnt change the lore at the moment. He is currently at Takada's side, in court, waiting for the next bumbling courtier to step forward, accuse the spider of evil and have his yojimbo/champion dance the deadly dance with Atsushi, to the death of course... pity this version will never see play in that deck, he would have been a perfect Coaat body along with his 3 pre experienced versions... so much for story or flavor or deck variety ;)

If honor loss was on holdings, unaligned, and strategies only, then we are talking deck choices, then we are talking variety and "playing like the great clan we are". But because our best personalities keep seemingly come equip with honor loss, the risk has to force us into NOT having variety. If they didn't want courtiers running around with ninja or the evil and tainted then that should be built into their sensei, not forced on the personalities.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:48 am 
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The difference between our honor losses vs. their proclaiming to honor up to run some of their Personalities is that one actively punishes us for running our In-Clan Personalities, and the other limits the bonus they get for playing their In-Clan Personalities.

Additionally, running those 2PH Scouts for Crane doesn't actively contribute to any of the other matchups the Crane Scout deck sees. Running Atsushi XP actively helps the dishonor deck against us. Running those Crane Scouts doesn't make honor, dishonor, military, or enlightenment win that much easier against the deck.

Yes, their 2PH means they won't gain as much as a dedicated honor deck (they'll also lack the additional honor gains employed by an Honor deck), but they'll also bleed much less. But those 2PH Scouts aren't ACTIVELY DAMAGING THEIR MATCHUP by the mere presence of being purchased, like Atsushi XP. They don't have to mend self-inflicted wounds created by buying their own Personalities.

Of all the Clans, we're the only one who has to do that. And those self-inflicted wounds, with most of our military Personalities (that being the deck this guy is most likely to see play in) having 0-1 PH, we have NO ability to mend said wounds.

Oh, and dishonor's been our worst matchup since our inception. So aside from being actively damaging to play, this guy also gives our worst matchup a helping hand should we choose to include him. If we, as I'm sure you'll suggest, just not buy him, that's a province's wasted production we just handed our worst matchup, something that, on the rare occasions when we can pull off a win, is RAZOR THIN.


At the end of the day, it comes down to a simple fact, no Clan should EVER be punished for running their In-Clan Personalities, unless it is a clear 'power for a price thing', ala the sort of thing they talked about with including the Oni in the Learn to Play decks for Ivory, or every Clan is being hit equally, as with the Fallen Personalities. Neither of which is happening here, we're the only Clan to lose honor for playing our own non-Fallen Personalities, and they're generally not that much better than the Personalities of other Clans (with Shiho being the obvious, and only, exception). Atsushi certainly isn't better than any of the other Personalities of the Holiday pack, and if he is, it's miniscule, and not the greater amount it would have to be to justify punishing us for running him (both with the Honor Loss and the Shadowlands keyword - which is still ONLY a negative keyword).

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:54 am 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
If honor loss was on holdings, unaligned, and strategies only, then we are talking deck choices, then we are talking variety and "playing like the great clan we are". But because our best personalities keep seemingly come equip with honor loss, the risk has to force us into NOT having variety. If they didn't want courtiers running around with ninja or the evil and tainted then that should be built into their sensei, not forced on the personalities.


All Atsushi XP needs is change in play order. You either Proclaim Yanada before you buy Atsushi XP, overlay Atsushi XP, Proclaim a Kageto after buying Atsushi XP but before buying/proclaiming Yanada, or gain 2 honor some other way. Play order changes due to higher than starting HR are normal for many non-military decks. Atsushi XP does not have a honor loss that can't be dealt with by another action.

CrimsonEyes wrote:
Atsushi certainly isn't better than any of the other Personalities of the Holiday pack, and if he is, it's miniscule, and not the greater amount it would have to be to justify punishing us for running him (both with the Honor Loss and the Shadowlands keyword - which is still ONLY a negative keyword).


Atsushi XP is not Shadowlands, and he is at least better than Shosuro Sakura, Shinjo Tae-hyun and Akodo Kenaro right now. Those three are nearly useless without the proper support that they current don't have. Sakura needs high focus value ninja stuff and more ninja duelists or poisoners to work or she is blank, Tae-hyun needs a military magistrate deck to work best, and the lower focus values of most duels hit tacticians hard meaning that the only real way to trigger Kenaro's trait right now is his own duel or the Way of the Crane and Way of the Dragon.


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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:40 pm 
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Sparks wrote:
Shahai Kirisu wrote:
He's not meant to be used with Yanada. They're for different decks. Much the same way that clans with above starting honour Personalities affect their other Personality choices, our honour losses affect ours.


Well color me shocked that Yanada isn't for a Fear deck! Wait... What is Atsushi's ability again? Oh yeah!

Don't be dumb, Chris. People of other clans don't have any problem running people with above box honor. It doesn't really hinder their deck construction or creativity in any way. This guy does! In a VERY negative way.


There's nothing dumb about it, Sparks. You just don't want to see the forest from the trees because you have a bee in your bonnet that you should be able to run anybody you want without penalty "because Spider". We, as a clan, can not have above-honour requirement personalities because we don't gain honour. How does one compensate for that fact to mirror a higher honour clans' above-honour requirement personlities? By penalizing you for running certain cards so that you have to make a choice whether to run them or not.

If its okay for other clans to have a balancing factor on their personalities to limit their usage to certain decks, why are we so special that we should have no such restriction?

Following the Scout example, the Crane Scout deck definitely isn't completely unable to run Hoturi, but if he flips before turn 5, he's a wasted card, something you certainly don't want to see, so you do have to make deck construction decisions based on the personalities you're including in your deck. All 2PH Scouts means you probably can't effectively run Hoturi XP. You could, but he'd be a dead card sometimes.

By the same token, we could absolutely run Takuan and Yanada in a deck with Shiho and Atsushi, but if we don't see the Courtiers before the honour losses, we can't bring them out. Just like the Crane deck, we could run them, but it probably wouldn't be very efficient to do so, because there would be games where they'd be dead cards.

I realize the story thing irritates, but the fact remains that honourable Courtiers and Goju Ninja don't mix. Apparently, Atsushi's infamy means that he's getting himself into a little too much trouble for polite company. Maybe they'll explain that in a story so that it helps clear up for Itsy why a guy that is a Yojimbo for Courtiers doesn't play well with them.

Whatever the reason, he's apparently not supposed to go into decks with Yanada and Takuan. Quite honestly, I've never missed using them in the PT "theme" deck I have Atsushi in. We'll have to judge his usefulness more accurately when 20 Festivals is released.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:57 pm 
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
....actively punishes us for running our In-Clan Personalities...


Crimson, he's not actively damaging us unless we're facing dishonour. Let's not get all hot and bothered and pretend we care about our family honour stat unless its being bled dry by dishonour. We actively run holdings, Fate cards and personalities that can bleed us to accelerate us every other time, not hurt us. So yes, this mechanic sucks against dishonour (again, not as much once we see fewer static honour losses, and far more meta-able), but its not always actively damaging us or even usually. Against two specific decks (unless another clan or two gets a way to dishonour), he's a hindrance. In EVERY other matchup, that honour loss means absolutely nothing unless you are running super corrupt and putting yourself in danger. Unless you recur Shiho 12 times in a game, its doubtful you'll be close to -20 in any non-dishonour game you play and you will absolutely not care what your honour count is unless you want to run the Courtiers, in which case, see my answer to Sparks.

CrimsonEyes wrote:
Atsushi certainly isn't better than any of the other Personalities of the Holiday pack, and if he is, it's miniscule, and not the greater amount it would have to be to justify punishing us for running him (both with the Honor Loss and the Shadowlands keyword - which is still ONLY a negative keyword).


As was pointed out, he doesn't have Shadowlands. And its not ONLY a negative keyword. You could run Everpresent Fear for a monster Fear action from your hand. :)

I can agree that he's not better than Ujirou XP. Renyu is a house, but being XP3, I'm not surprised. I would put Atsushi into the middle of the pack, though. Maybe he's not as OMG universally useful, but not many of them really are. Most seem to be made for a specific decktype, and Atsushi seems tailor-made for a dueling deck running a bunch of duels which will only make him bigger and bigger as the game goes on. He'll very nicely fit right into my Aranai Sensei Dueling deck. Looking forward to him.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
By the same token, we could absolutely run Takuan and Yanada in a deck with Shiho and Atsushi, but if we don't see the Courtiers before the honour losses, we can't bring them out. Just like the Crane deck, we could run them, but it probably wouldn't be very efficient to do so, because there would be games where they'd be dead cards.


It is NOTHING like that same thing at all. Sorry to burst your bubble, man. Losing two honor means I can NEVER buy Yanada or Takuan or Marimako. Whereas the higher honor clans can (if they don't meet the honor req right now, leave the guy in province and buy him next turn. How is this even remotely the same?

Shahai Kirisu wrote:
I realize the story thing irritates, but the fact remains that honourable Courtiers and Goju Ninja don't mix.


Irritates is a very nice way of saying it. Story should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER trump game mechanics. Story fluff can go in to cards without having such a negative mechanical flaw. If you think that's impossible, why are still on play test?

Shahai Kirisu wrote:
Whatever the reason, he's apparently not supposed to go into decks with Yanada and Takuan.


It doesn't fuckin matter what personalities are 'supposed' to do. It's a card game. I want to play with all the cards in the same mechanical sense that everyone else can. Period. I'm not asking for special treatment here. I'm asking for mechanical game balance. You know, the thing that design is 'supposed' to be striving for?

Shahai Kirisu wrote:
Quite honestly, I've never missed using them in the PT "theme" deck I have Atsushi in. We'll have to judge his usefulness more accurately when 20 Festivals is released.


Well that doesn't surprise me at all, really. Because play test only tests theme decks, why the hell would you even think of putting yanada in a ninja deck? Theme decks are weak! Test shit that matters, please.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:14 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
Which is exactly what I'm saying when I'm comparing our honour losses to their proclaiming up. We have to avoid honour losses the same way they have to proclaim up for some of their people. Its a similar costing mechanism, just keyed to our clan differently. We have to make the same choices they do. You want to run Yanada in your deck? Fine, no Shiho or now Atsushi XP. You want to be super-corrupt guy? No Susumu Courtiers for you. A Crane deck that wants Hoturi isn't loading up on 2PH Scouts to get there, and we aren't loading up on Saido, Shiho and Atsushi if we want to play Takuan and Yanada.


I don't think anyone is complaining about having a mechanic that is essentially honor gating personalities for when they can enter play. What people are complaining about is how it is being implemented, as it is widely disliked and a negative experience. For instance take Crane and Hoturi. At a HR of 10, you can make the decision to include him in the deck or not during deck design. At a starting honor of 6, you need 2 rounds of proclaims to bring the card into play, regardless if your personalities are 2 PH or 3. You can design around this, when you build your deck. Even if you are putting in one of the two 1 PH Crane personalities roughly 80% of your other personalities still fit the 2+ PH requirement for planning on getting Hoturi into play. Additionally, as you are restricted to a single proclaim a turn, the 1 PH requirement isn't actually a factor if you can bring in another personality that does meet the 2+ PH.

A deck of roughly 18 Holdings, 1 Hoturi, 3 1PH, 16 2+PH, 2 Other cards has roughly a 10% chance of turn 3 not proclaiming for at least 2 (assuming 2 turns of buying and bring in 3 444 holdings, and not taking into account possible first turn cycling) and can potentially still proclaim turn 4 for 3 given their personality base to still achieve the HR that you set out to build your deck around.

This form of personality gating works because it is predictable and can be designed around. If a personality has an above starting honor requirement it is essentially dictating at which point in the game that card should be entering play. The Crane player can sit down and put Hoturi in knowing that turn 4 is the earliest it will enter play, possibly turn 5. Crane Honor can design their deck around a 3 proclaim and one other gain to get Hoturi in one turn earlier. The proclaiming system is easy to understand and allows for both in game and out of game thoughtful decision making.

Now let us consider how it is implemented for Spider. First and foremost, it isn't even a personality gating system as you can bring the honor loss causing personality into the game at any point. Which means from a balance standpoint the personality has to be designed around the fact that he can enter play that early. (As they have already stated they don't want games to be perceived as being lost to a lucky flip - in regards to unique experienced personalities.) So while Hoturi is being designed to be strong enough to not be able to enter play until turn 4/5 without outside help, Atsushi has to be balanced around entering play turn 3. So if he is being designed with that in mind, then why the need for personality gating from a mechanical standpoint.

It is also something that isn't easily predictable as in the case for other clans. Hoturi comes in turn 4/5 regardless of when he shows up and who specifically shows up as long as you get your two 2+ proclaims, which given their setup should be consistent. In the Atsushi/Yanada case: If Yanada shows up at the same time or earlier, there is no effect in game terms. If Atsushi shows up before Yanada you are essentially being gated in the same sense as Hoturi and Atsushi sits in his province and you don't buy him, which is neither here nor there at the moment. BUT, here is where the problem does arise, other clans have a non-zero average PH, unlike Spider. So for Crane, they would have 16 2+ PH bodies that they could count on being flipped into next turn to unlock Hoturi. Spider would have essentially 3 for Yanada, 3 for Takuan, 3 for Kageto. So you have almost half the number of bodies you can hope to flip into to unlock Atsushi. What if you want to run just 3 Yanada, you are now choosing Atsushi locking you out Yanada or Yanada locking you out of Atsushi until you can flip him, which might be next turn, it might be the last 3 cards in your dynasty deck. The honor loss version of gating doesn't work because it doesn't allow the same flexibility in deck design given our personality base. You are being forced into running honor loss and being locked out of card choices for IN CLAN personalities, running honor loss and being forced into enough non-zero PH bodies as to consistently not be locked out. Being forced into these deck design choices for using the personalities they gave us isn't fun and that is the problem.

As to echo many of the other complaints already brought up. I feel a lot of the negativity comes from there are better ways to implement each of the possible reasonings of honor loss on our in clan personalities:
* Honor Loss to prevent other clans from using our personalities. The Kokujin example of Honor Loss unless you are Spider.
* Honor Loss because of Story implications. Make it an Honor Loss that can't drop you below your starting honor. You have the story implications of how poorly the rest of Rokugan view the personality, but now it has the added effect that it also shows how the other clans view all of Spider anyways and how little Spider cares. Additionally, it would diminish its effect against the Dishonor matchup which is a good thing.
* Honor Loss as version of personality gating. Same as above where it can't drop you below your starting Honor. DT can now print a 0HR for personalities they want working with those personalities, and 1+HR for personalities they don't.


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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:34 pm 
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I didn't say it was the same as an honour requirement. I said that it was a way to do something similar for a clan that doesn't gain honour from their people.

Ultimately, you want to be able to play every Spider guy without restriction, no delays, no need to run more honourable, because we're Spider and we shouldn't have restrictions on any of our people. Immunity from honour losses was the most common siren's call from people. Other clans have honour requirements that delay or outright keep people from decks if you run people with honour losses, such as some of the Fallen guys who are in-clan. But Spider should absolutely not have to worry about it because we're Spider. Can't argue with that. No favouritism there at all.

I remain on PT because I look at the big picture when judging a card. The big picture, whether you like it or not, DOES include story. Its why Br'nn XP has an absolutely near-useless third trait about an opponent with Ashalan cards that I love because it speaks to his story victory over Crystal Wind. Its why Keppo XP steals things. Its why the new Kokujin woman has an option to kill someone to straighten her. Its why Renyu XP bows Shadowlands cards. Its why an Assassin like Saido causes an honour loss for playing him.

Its why Infamy matters in a game that is, at its core, about an ongoing storyline, and why it will affect the card of that personality.

If all of these things bother you so much, then you might be playing the wrong game. Story-wise, as a Great Clan, we have to play by the rules now. We're vaguely grudgingly accepted, which is why our Shadowlands Samurai don't cost us honour like they have in the past. However, the Goju are still considered anathema and cause us honour losses. That's a story thing, but its why most of us play the game. Its why I don't object to honour losses on our Ninja. Its part of the game that has to be factored in when designing cards.

Does Design need to find better ways to make it so that we can recover from that against dishonour. Sure. That's a whole other conversation. But in and of itself, an honour loss on our guy isn't the end of the world. Its both a storyline reason and also can be a balancing factor that affects which personalities we can play in our decks.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:49 pm 
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Susumu Fosu wrote:
Shahai Kirisu wrote:
<A whole bunch of rational debate stuff>


I'd be genuinely curious how you would implement that in Spider, because we don't gain honour from almost every personality and the examples you've given do nothing to prevent any Personality from being played in your deck, if that was desired. For example, not dropping below 0 is meaningless if all the honourable guys you run have 0HR. If you can't gain honour and you can't go below 0 from your guys, you basically aren't gaining or losing honour from your guys.

To me, it seems pretty clear cut. If you want to run corrupt, you can't play the Courtiers or Marimako. Simple and to the point. The complaints about Marimako were that you couldn't run Shiho with her? Clearly, she was a "make a choice" personality. 3F Naval Conqueror for 4 meant something had to give because Shiho's power level is an aberration, not the norm. That was the 0HR. You run her or Shiho (although with the 1PH of a bunch of Monks, you could still probably include 2 Shiho if you wanted).

By the same token, Takuan has a hard time explaining Saido running around. Another choice. Takuan's amazing ability or the ability to p-kill someone at home? Some decks will prefer Takuan. Some will prefer Saido.

The trouble, from the moaning about honour losses, is that you can't just run them all. No restrictions. But the honour losses, while hurting against dishonour (which sucks, yes), also provide a forcing of deck choices, based on both story reasons and mechanical. Takuan would probably be in every Spider deck without honour losses limiting that. Should he be allowed to be? Would he be an above HR personality in other low-honour clans, such as Scorpion or Mantis, due to his power level? I'm betting he would be. Ergo, shouldn't Spider have a similar consideration? The fact that we've been sub-par for so long shouldn't free us from that consideration.

So, what kind of options could we have to create a similar system to above-honour guys that is fair and actually prevents you from running certain people depending on your deck?

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:26 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
I didn't say it was the same as an honour requirement. I said that it was a way to do something similar for a clan that doesn't gain honour from their people.

Ultimately, you want to be able to play every Spider guy without restriction, no delays, no need to run more honourable, because we're Spider and we shouldn't have restrictions on any of our people. Immunity from honour losses was the most common siren's call from people. Other clans have honour requirements that delay or outright keep people from decks if you run people with honour losses, such as some of the Fallen guys who are in-clan. But Spider should absolutely not have to worry about it because we're Spider. Can't argue with that. No favouritism there at all.

I remain on PT because I look at the big picture when judging a card. The big picture, whether you like it or not, DOES include story. Its why Br'nn XP has an absolutely near-useless third trait about an opponent with Ashalan cards that I love because it speaks to his story victory over Crystal Wind. Its why Keppo XP steals things. Its why the new Kokujin woman has an option to kill someone to straighten her. Its why Renyu XP bows Shadowlands cards. Its why an Assassin like Saido causes an honour loss for playing him.

Its why Infamy matters in a game that is, at its core, about an ongoing storyline, and why it will affect the card of that personality.

If all of these things bother you so much, then you might be playing the wrong game. Story-wise, as a Great Clan, we have to play by the rules now. We're vaguely grudgingly accepted, which is why our Shadowlands Samurai don't cost us honour like they have in the past. However, the Goju are still considered anathema and cause us honour losses. That's a story thing, but its why most of us play the game. Its why I don't object to honour losses on our Ninja. Its part of the game that has to be factored in when designing cards.

Does Design need to find better ways to make it so that we can recover from that against dishonour. Sure. That's a whole other conversation. But in and of itself, an honour loss on our guy isn't the end of the world. Its both a storyline reason and also can be a balancing factor that affects which personalities we can play in our decks.


In terms of it being similar, it is still a bad mechanic that should be revamped, as my post pointed out. HR don't exclude nearly as much as honor loss requirements, and when they do they can be designed for. Honor Loss can't be designed around as it can show up turn 3 whereas HR has a set turn they will start showing up and can be balanced with that in mind. Their system works for Scorpion just fine, and their highest HR is a '0' of which there are 5 of them and everyone else is '- HR'. And none of their non-Fallen guys require an honor loss to dictate who can and can't play nice together. (The Fallen honor loss can be thrown out as they are being thrown out with 20F, unlike honor loss on our own personalities.)

In terms of your Fallen argument, Nexus of Lies aside (because that card is leaving 20F too), honor loss from Fallen in clan personalities aren't even remotely on the same level of impact as honor loss on Spider. Assuming you are running only the in clan Fallen as a counterpoint to Spider in clan personalities hitting for an honor loss. Take Crane, you proclaim a guy and then bring in a Crane Fallen guy you haven't really moved much. But even then, you aren't permanently excluded from playing Hoturi. Each Fallen personality simply pushes the turn he can enter play back by one.

It is something that has needs to be realized that if you make positive mechanics they get responded to positively. If you make negative mechanics they get responded to negatively. Throwing honor loss on people is a negative consequence and we feel we are being punished for it and it is detrimental to one of the win conditions. Proclaiming to unlock better personalities is positive and is viewed positively and is even beneficial to two win conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:59 pm 
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In terms of how to implement from a DT standpoint when they are deliberately trying to keep 1 card from interacting with another for Spider would have been fairly simple. Given the number of bonuses to lobbying checks for Spider (Yanada and Issei) they could have easily implemented something similar to Kuroko Sensi. Where the card could have said your Family Honor is considered to be +5 when attempting to bring Spider Clan personalities into play. You have maintained the starting honor position of Spider with and without the sensi. You maintain the honor gains necessary for winning, but you now have opened a window to allow yourself the same honor requirements other clans do BUT the design team is being explicit when they are actively trying to keep two personalities from interacting. So if Yanada is a 0 HR personality they are saying use him everywhere. If he is a 2 or a 4 HR they are saying we actively want you to have to choose between honor loss cards and this personality or bring enough honorable cards to make up the difference and 6+ would be this card is only meant for the Susumu match up and has been balanced around only being in that situation. From a story standpoint those 6+ HR acknowledges that there are Susumu that can't openly associate with the things that their clan are doing.

As it stands, the design team won't tell us why there is a 2 Honor Loss on Atsushi. Is it for story reasons because of how he will straight up murder you in a duel even when he shouldn't? Is it because short of putting Loyal on every Spider clan personality there isn't any really way of keeping them out of other players decks because of Honor Requirements so they slap on honor losses to combat it. Is it because they actively are preventing two cards from interacting, or was that an unintentional consequence justified because of story. Is the 2 honor loss supposed to be part of his costing for his stats? The combination of it being negative and vague, and hurting against dishonor, and something no other clan has to deal with. If they are being explicit it the why people might get upset, but they would move on a lot faster.

You argue that we want to be able to use all of our dudes without consequence. However, after turn 4 how many personalities are actually being excluded from every other clan because of the personalities they included if you had access to all the personalities printed?

Similarly, with the personalities with an honor loss hit. I would be fine if they capped it at 0. Or more to the point have DISREPUTABLE be a thing. We are Spider, and should be doing underhanded crap. I would love more personalities like Ichiro and Sengmai who require low family honor to even enter play. I would include more cards that are costed beneficially and require a below zero honor requirement. Or make Shadowlands be a rulebook effect that keys off of your family honor when entering play. If your family honor is below zero and you are Shadowlands gain a +1F token. If it is below -10 it also gains Destined. These are by no means actually balanced but it turns Shadowlands into a beneficial trait and improves our worst matchup at the same time as dishonoring us makes us stronger.


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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:38 pm 
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Susumu Fosu wrote:
A bunch of level headed posts.


Kudos for you being so civil, bud. I know I get tempered a lot, but sometimes, I just want to punch a baby after reading a lot of the stuff that Chris posts.

I can't believe, for a guy on playtest, it takes so much explaining to get things across. And he still doesn't get it... like at all. I don't believe he ever will.

The design process is highly flawed. The play test system (while may be better than it used to be) is still very much flawed. When designing cards, you don't EVER make a card flavorful over mechanic balance, regardless if the game is very flavorful. If you want to keep flavor in the game (which I wholeheartedly think it should) then do it in a way that doesn't hamper design mechanics. It doesn't have to be that way at all. It boggles my mind that people like Chris, who are on play test, think that mechanically making something weaker than everyone else is good design. I'm so dumbfounded in the fact that NOBODY can come up with a solution to the Spider/Dishonor match up. It is just absurd!

Chris' posts have driven off at least 3 people I know who regularly post on these boards. The things that comes out of his mouth is just garbage, plain and simple.

But I just wanted to highlight your posts, Fosu. I'm glad you haven't gotten to the point that I am, yet. Keep up with the great posts, man.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:28 am 
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You guys are being way too hard on Chris. He's coming in here and giving you insight into the playtest process, explaining the thought process behind balance and implementation. Instead of being appreciative of the time he's taking to discuss it you just want to dogpile him about being "wrong". I wish someone came to the Crane players last year when we were terribad and talked about some of this stuff.

EDIT: Note that I'm not disagreeing that the honor loss is a questionable mechanic and the dishonor match up needs fixing.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:43 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
You guys are being way too hard on Chris. He's coming in here and giving you insight into the playtest process, explaining the thought process behind balance and implementation. Instead of being appreciative of the time he's taking to discuss it you just want to dogpile him about being "wrong". I wish someone came to the Crane players last year when we were terribad and talked about some of this stuff.


This!

Also, my post was taken as an example by an admin but apparently insulting is fine... this is what drives people away from the forums


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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:40 am 
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Apparently Operation Drive Off The Negativity is working if I've driven away three players. I'm sure that I'm solely responsible.

Thanks for the defense, Shiro, but I don't even think its a look behind the curtain but instead trying to look at the cards and try and figure out why something is being done or what kind of use a card could be designed for. I see our honour losses as both a story point, a little bit of a holdover from our very evil past, and a way to provide a mechanic similar to honour requirements. I don't even know if that's the case because I don't design the cards. I'm just theorizing in terms of the honour requirement comparison, but it makes sense to me. Is it the best way? Maybe not. Fosu has some very good ideas that could certainly be considered moving forward (although with lead times of set development, it would have to be in Ivory 3 at this point), although honour losses are the way that other clans deal with running bad stuff, so I'm not sure layering another mechanic on top is the simplest way of doing things. I'm definitely not dismissing it out of hand as its made me think. Thanks for taking the time to be so articulate, Fosu.

There's a lot of justified anger over our continued standing in the tier ladder and that continues to cause instant leaps to "this sucks", despite the fact that we appear (yes, small sample sizes, but its something) to be getting better and balance is getting closer among the clans. Phoenix won something with honour this past weekend. Crab Shugenja military won Emeralds. We were runner-up at Worlds in Arc and have been in elims or play-in rounds in multiple Strict events now (and even won one!), a format that almost everyone agrees we're pretty good in. We may not be top tier in Strict, but we're definitely competitive. Far closer to winning things than the constant negativity circle-jerk that every preview seems to bring together.

So, yeah, I'm Captain Positivity against this sea of near-constant complaining. My apologies if that offends people.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:50 am 
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Yes, Spider is doing better.

But dedicated dishonor, our bane, isn't very prevalent, so, grain of salt on that progress. Once dishonor gets up to steam in Strict, we'll talk. IF we fall back down into irrelevance once that happens, then this small sample size won't be that we were improving, just that our worst matchup wasn't there.


And if dishonor does get up to steam and starts wrecking our shop, as it always has, Atsushi XP here will be completely unplayable because of that honor loss on him.

Finally, yes, I was wrong about Atsushi having Shadowlands, and you name the single card that benefits Shadowlands. That's great, vs the many, many cards (14 in Ivory at my count) that punish you for having it. That's not balance, that's Shadowlands being a solely negative keyword, us not getting any compensation (better stats or better abilities) for carrying a soley negative keyword, and a single token card that 'benefits' Shadowlands, by doing the weakest mechanic (Fear) in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:56 am 
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That's why there was a wink (or was it a smile) after the mention of Everpresent Fear. I know there's an inequality, but the statement that there's nothing that benefits Shadowlands wasn't entirely true. Just mostly. ;)

As for dishonour, I would argue that it is up to speed in Strict, just not dominant. There are good dishonour decks in Strict. Its just that there are less tools for hitting low honour clans in the teeth. As I keep saying, the removal of a large number of static honour losses that directly harm us helps us weather the dishonour storm more easily and is something that we can actually use a reasonable amount of meta cards against to combat if we're genuinely worried. Its a lot easier to meta 2-5 a turn rather than 6-10+. Crab Dishonour remains an issue in Strict going forward, mind you, as its pretty solid, but they have other options in Strict (see the Emerald Championships-winning Crab Shugenja build using Tsujiken) that will give them another upper-tier deck to consider.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:34 pm 
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Shahai Kirisu wrote:
There's nothing dumb about it, Sparks. You just don't want to see the forest from the trees because you have a bee in your bonnet that you should be able to run anybody you want without penalty "because Spider". We, as a clan, can not have above-honour requirement personalities because we don't gain honour.


If we don't gain honor, then we can't make up for honor losses. This is a very simple formula. Lose honor + can't get honor = "-"HR is all you can do.

Shahai Kirisu wrote:
How does one compensate for that fact to mirror a higher honour clans' above-honour requirement personlities? By penalizing you for running certain cards so that you have to make a choice whether to run them or not.


Cool, so when do high honor clans get to be punished for having access to a secondary win condition for their military decks and the ability to run bodies out of clan with HR? I would love to run Bat Girl!

There is a monumental difference between the clock effect of having to gain honor to meet an Honor Requirement, and the exclusion effect of having deck friction within a clan.

If you want to make it so balanced, then you would have to say the following would potentially "balance" it out as well:

1) The clan with higher honor has to declare a win condition at the beginning of the game and can only win with that win condition. This removes the effect of a secondary win condition
2) The clan with higher honor can only play with in-clan personalities. This removes the innate expanded access of bodies higher honor clans have.

However, we don't have that. The current situation, just to be clear is.

Higher Honor Clans have the following:
A) Access to a secondary win condition via PH - Positive
B) Access to more usable personalities via PH - Positive
C) A clock on their "power uniques" to keep them from hitting the board to quickly - Negative

Spider has the following:
C*) Deck friction because we have to separate our honor loss bodies from our 0PH bodies. - Negative with the added bonus of effectively making certain bodies exclude other bodies, therefore reducing our personality pool

Low Honor clans that aren't Spider have:
Nada

And anyone can see that clock effects are far more manageable than deck friction decisions.

How is this balanced? You say you are trying to emulate the effects of HR on power uniques, yet I'm failing to see how deck friction on our base personalities is even remotely comparable to someone not bringing out a power unique T3. In addition, high honor clans are getting even more benefits for having high honor and other low honor clans aren't getting hit period.

If Sparks is being unreasonable, I'm glad to call him out on it, but Chris, all I see right now is this:

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:58 pm 
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And just to be clear. I like Chris and I like the fact that he comes and defends stuff.

I'm not being hard on Chris because I don't like what's coming out of his mouth. I'm being hard because I'm seeing contradictions/holes in his statements that I want addressed.

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