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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:32 pm 
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BeastEG wrote:
Shahai Kirisu wrote:
There's nothing dumb about it, Sparks. You just don't want to see the forest from the trees because you have a bee in your bonnet that you should be able to run anybody you want without penalty "because Spider". We, as a clan, can not have above-honour requirement personalities because we don't gain honour.


If we don't gain honor, then we can't make up for honor losses. This is a very simple formula. Lose honor + can't get honor = "-"HR is all you can do.


4 out of our 31 Iv2 legal personalities have -HR and 1+PH and Atsushi by himself will not drop a Kuroko Sensei deck below 0.

Quote:
Cool, so when do high honor clans get to be punished for having access to a secondary win condition for their military decks and the ability to run bodies out of clan with HR? I would love to run Bat Girl!


You can run either of the Komori if you build your deck right and I'd love to see the 19+ turn game where a Crane Scout deck wins by Honor through Proclaiming each of it's personalities one at a time.

Quote:
There is a monumental difference between the clock effect of having to gain honor to meet an Honor Requirement, and the exclusion effect of having deck friction within a clan.



Quote:
Spider has the following:
C*) Deck friction because we have to separate our honor loss bodies from our 0PH bodies. - Negative with the added bonus of effectively making certain bodies exclude other bodies, therefore reducing our personality pool

Most clan's suffer from "deck friction." Spider are not special in that regard. The deck friction usually comes in the form of Personality base incongruity (i.e. Crane scouts don't work well with duelists, Dragon monks don't work with kensai, Crab merchants don't work with berserkers, etc.). The Lion's "Good Personalities with Good Actions" is an anomaly rather than the standard for high honor clans.


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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Daigotsu Atsuo wrote:
BeastEG wrote:
Shahai Kirisu wrote:
There's nothing dumb about it, Sparks. You just don't want to see the forest from the trees because you have a bee in your bonnet that you should be able to run anybody you want without penalty "because Spider". We, as a clan, can not have above-honour requirement personalities because we don't gain honour.


If we don't gain honor, then we can't make up for honor losses. This is a very simple formula. Lose honor + can't get honor = "-"HR is all you can do.


4 out of our 31 Iv2 legal personalities have -HR and 1+PH and Atsushi by himself will not drop a Kuroko Sensei deck below 0.


It's not only the number, it's the bodies themselves. We are talking about Shiho and Saido, 2 of our power bodies. These knock out of contention Yanada, Takuan, and Naval Monk. Some of our most playable bodies are conflicting with each other which is an issue.

Also, playing 1+PH people means auto-loss against dishonor. If the whole point is our clan avoids all the PH based honor losses of 20F for balance, you are just further demarcating us into selecting our auto-loss against dishonor.

If you are playing Kuroko, that means you are playing honor. This means your personality is actively taking away from your win condition. What other clan has non-fallen, non-shadowlands, honor loss bodies that actively take away from there honor win condition? I'm serious in that statement.

Daigotsu Atsuo wrote:
BeastEG wrote:
Cool, so when do high honor clans get to be punished for having access to a secondary win condition for their military decks and the ability to run bodies out of clan with HR? I would love to run Bat Girl!


You can run either of the Komori if you build your deck right and I'd love to see the 19+ turn game where a Crane Scout deck wins by Honor through Proclaiming each of it's personalities one at a time.


Okay, so you build that deck and win some Koteis with it, because I will bet it won't happen. Saying I can build that deck "right" is short-hand for, "I know that card can't actually go in that deck."

Also, if you looked at the new Crane SH, they can gain 5 honor a turn with 3PH proclaims. They will cross a lot faster than you think AND if they win a defensive battle in resolution, they usually will gain 6-8 honor. It's really not that hard to honor out in a military stall-out. I've done it many times and have had it done to me many times.


Daigotsu Atsuo wrote:
BeastEG wrote:
There is a monumental difference between the clock effect of having to gain honor to meet an Honor Requirement, and the exclusion effect of having deck friction within a clan
Spider has the following:
C*) Deck friction because we have to separate our honor loss bodies from our 0PH bodies. - Negative with the added bonus of effectively making certain bodies exclude other bodies, therefore reducing our personality pool

Most clan's suffer from "deck friction." Spider are not special in that regard. The deck friction usually comes in the form of Personality base incongruity (i.e. Crane scouts don't work well with duelists, Dragon monks don't work with kensai, Crab merchants don't work with berserkers, etc.). The Lion's "Good Personalities with Good Actions" is an anomaly rather than the standard for high honor clans.


Which clan has personalities that actually de facto exclude other personalities in clan? I completely agree that certain bodies don't go well with each other. That is is almost axiomatic, but If you are building a deck with Shiho , Saido, Yanada and Naval Monk, you will not be able to bring out your 0HR a fair amount of times.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:17 pm 
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BeastEG wrote:
It's not only the number, it's the bodies themselves. We are talking about Shiho and Saido, 2 of our power bodies. These knock out of contention Yanada, Takuan, and Naval Monk. Some of our most playable bodies are conflicting with each other which is an issue.


No we are talking about Atsushi XP, a power duelist who makes a suite of honor cards usable, but if you are running Atsushi XP, Shiho or Saido in a deck with Yanada, Takuan or Marimako you just need to change your perspective. Shiho has an HR of 1, Atsushi XP HR of 2, and Saido has an HR of 1 or 3. You only have yourself to blame if you purchase them at the wrong time.

Quote:
Also, playing 1+PH people means auto-loss against dishonor. If the whole point is our clan avoids all the PH based honor losses of 20F for balance, you are just further demarcating us into selecting our auto-loss against dishonor.


If 1+PH people meant auto-loss then Crab, Scorpion and Unicorn would be in similar amounts of trouble with dishonor.

Quote:
If you are playing Kuroko, that means you are playing honor. This means your personality is actively taking away from your win condition. What other clan has non-fallen, non-shadowlands, honor loss bodies that actively take away from there honor win condition? I'm serious in that statement.


Can't say I do, but, funnily, I remember an Emperor Edition Spider deck that relied on a Fate card that caused an honor loss in order to allow a Dynasty card to be an honor rocket. If that was the other way around a Dynasty Card with an honor loss that allowed Fate cards to rocket it would have been the perfect counterexample.

Quote:
Okay, so you build that deck and win some Koteis with it, because I will bet it won't happen. Saying I can build that deck "right" is short-hand for, "I know that card can't actually go in that deck."


All Komori Taruko needs is a single honor gain to be purchasable. Not that difficult a thing to do. If you want to run her ask yourself how do I gain the honor to buy her.

Quote:
Also, if you looked at the new Crane SH, they can gain 5 honor a turn with 3PH proclaims. They will cross a lot faster than you think AND if they win a defensive battle in resolution, they usually will gain 6-8 honor. It's really not that hard to honor out in a military stall-out. I've done it many times and have had it done to me many times.


All but 2 Iv2 scouts are 2 or less PH, the stronghold ability roughly translates as pay 4 gold to gain 2 honor (if it doesn't get disabled by future military sensei), and military stall-outs can go either way.

Quote:
Which clan has personalities that actually de facto exclude other personalities in clan? I completely agree that certain bodies don't go well with each other. That is is almost axiomatic, but If you are building a deck with Shiho , Saido, Yanada and Naval Monk, you will not be able to bring out your 0HR a fair amount of times.

Only if you do not include ways of recovering and/or gaining honor Fate and Dynasty side. A Good Death, Drawing First Blood, Fearless Devotion, New Factors and Ancestral Armor of the Spider all have incidental honor gains and potential reasons to include. As long as you can gain 1 honor per Shiho/Saido purchase +2 per Saido kill used there will not be any problems and you will also be stronger versus dishonor. Yanada himself it 2 Honor.


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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:09 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, playing 1+PH people means auto-loss against dishonor. If the whole point is our clan avoids all the PH based honor losses of 20F for balance, you are just further demarcating us into selecting our auto-loss against dishonor.


If 1+PH people meant auto-loss then Crab, Scorpion and Unicorn would be in similar amounts of trouble with dishonor.


With the exception of 5G going first Unicorn Crab and Scorpion DO have a similar amount of trouble with dishonor as does mantis as well... Have you been playing Ivory lol

Quote:
Quote:
If you are playing Kuroko, that means you are playing honor. This means your personality is actively taking away from your win condition. What other clan has non-fallen, non-shadowlands, honor loss bodies that actively take away from there honor win condition? I'm serious in that statement.


Can't say I do, but, funnily, I remember an Emperor Edition Spider deck that relied on a Fate card that caused an honor loss in order to allow a Dynasty card to be an honor rocket. If that was the other way around a Dynasty Card with an honor loss that allowed Fate cards to rocket it would have been the perfect counterexample.


Wait.... are you referencing a broken Paneki mask deck, immediately banned afterwords, and trying to compare it to putting us back a whole turns worth of proclaim with Atsushi to MAYBE use a card to gain honor to catch us back up........ are you really doing that, have we scraped that far down the barrel?

Quote:
Quote:
Also, if you looked at the new Crane SH, they can gain 5 honor a turn with 3PH proclaims. They will cross a lot faster than you think AND if they win a defensive battle in resolution, they usually will gain 6-8 honor. It's really not that hard to honor out in a military stall-out. I've done it many times and have had it done to me many times.


All but 2 Iv2 scouts are 2 or less PH, the stronghold ability roughly translates as pay 4 gold to gain 2 honor (if it doesn't get disabled by future military sensei), and military stall-outs can go either way.


Anyone that has played draft knows that the ability to pay 4 for 2 honor is significant and can EASILY swing a stalled out game into your favor. That crane only runs 3 sets of 3 PH scouts in their scout deck means nothing to the fact that they ARE running a switch deck should they need to. That is what the crane box in IV2 does for them.

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 Post subject: Re: [2014 Holiday Pack] Daigotsu Atsushi XP
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:25 pm 
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Sparks wrote:
Susumu Fosu wrote:
A bunch of level headed posts.


Kudos for you being so civil, bud. I know I get tempered a lot, but sometimes, I just want to punch a baby after reading a lot of the stuff that Chris posts.

I can't believe, for a guy on playtest, it takes so much explaining to get things across. And he still doesn't get it... like at all. I don't believe he ever will.

The design process is highly flawed. The play test system (while may be better than it used to be) is still very much flawed. When designing cards, you don't EVER make a card flavorful over mechanic balance, regardless if the game is very flavorful. If you want to keep flavor in the game (which I wholeheartedly think it should) then do it in a way that doesn't hamper design mechanics. It doesn't have to be that way at all. It boggles my mind that people like Chris, who are on play test, think that mechanically making something weaker than everyone else is good design. I'm so dumbfounded in the fact that NOBODY can come up with a solution to the Spider/Dishonor match up. It is just absurd!

Chris' posts have driven off at least 3 people I know who regularly post on these boards. The things that comes out of his mouth is just garbage, plain and simple.

But I just wanted to highlight your posts, Fosu. I'm glad you haven't gotten to the point that I am, yet. Keep up with the great posts, man.


I don't think this is fair to Chris, and in fact is an outright insult to a person who has been very fair while disagreeing. I disagree with him often too. But if people have been driven off by someone politely offering a different viewpoint, then I feel bad fo those people. If the best response in the debate you can offer is calling his posts garbage, then maybe you should take a break.

I'm locking this thread. If we can't discuss a new card without descending into the same level of recriminations and accusations, then we can't discuss it at all. Spider have had it bad, but if we can't express dissent with civility and courtesy, even to our own, we can't expect positive changes. In fact, if every thread can't constructively discuss either the benefits of a card or what we need instead, or clearly put forth our grievances in a way that includes concrete answers in a non-aggressive matter, then we are failing as a community.

Sparks, this is a warning and I think you owe Chris an apology.

All others: when disagreeing with others or lamenting the design problems we face, let's endeavor to be constructive and civil so we might be better heard and represented. I'm not saying you have to like everything AEG does or design makes, but let's be critical in a way that represents our community well.

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