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 Post subject: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:22 pm 
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Hello guys,

Well, I don't know if anyone still comes here, and I don't know if anyone still cares about the story, but just in case there are a few that do, the L5R Story Team has finished the Ivory story arc and you can find the PDF containing the last L5R stories in the AEG continuity at the link here.

That's just a temporary link for now; we will eventually move it to Kaze No Shiro.

There's so much that got cut to fit into a single PDF. We had to condense eight months of fiction into a handful of fics. A few things we had to change in order to bring closure, things we wanted to play "long game" with, etc. In the end, this was the best we could do. I wish I could give more. I hope you enjoy.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:52 am 
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Thank you.

All of you.

Even if you DID make me like a stinkin' Yoritomo at the very end there.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:54 am 
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This is a super cool thing of you guys to give us. Thanks to you and the whole fiction team, really.

some thoughts, about both this in specific and i guess ivory in general. spoilers is guess?

- seeing the arc in a neat package, i think people would have been really happy with how it went, despite the destruction. the scorpion pulled an epic win out on the spider, and the mantis went out in a fashion that absolutely honored their founder.
- personally, i really like the explanation that Iweko, needing the spider's help, foresaw the possibility of betrayal and planned to try and "corrupt" as much of the spider to Rokugani ways. thats a nice inversion, and explains a somewhat questionable choice to make the deal in the first place.
- that said, i'm sure that the old AEG forums would not have been placated
- up to this point, i didn't really get or buy the split in the spider. the susumu's dual loyalty was traditional but otherwise it seemed kind of forced. but i get it now. in the context of these fictions it works.
- Nitoshi redeeming Shoju is just great. Just great. that whole fic is great. i'm not sure i entirely buy Kanpeki being that gullible, but bringing two champions' heads is a pretty impressive bribe. i guess i can see Kanpeki thinking he could control Nitoshi and underestimating how much he'd be willing to sacrifice. i love how the rest of the scorpion save themselves.
- on the negative side, i don't like the depiction of Kanpeki here. the fictions have always walked a fine line between portraying him as a hulking bruiser and the intersection of all the training the spider and dragon had to offer, even before his "fall". i don't buy that adding the taint would suddenly wash away all that subtlety just because he's got muscles. Especially since the source of said taint is his father, who is unlikely to nuke his brain.
- YUHMI IS A BOSS
- SO IS TAIRAO. Towing an elemental master's arm around like a magic wand is so fucking chuda i can't handle it.
- the time jump at the end, implying an empire in exile in the colonies, with the further implication that this is the whole purpose of the clearing of the colonies, as a place for the survivors of Rokugan to flee to should the seals be broken as the Empress had feared, is good.
- all in all the end of ivory wraps up the arc really nicely. taken as a whole, it works really well, and resolves a lot of the problems people had with the arc.

at the end of the day, mechanically, i really loved where ivory and onyx were going, and this bundle of fictions makes me like ivory a lot more than i had while it was unrolling. For most of ivory, i had a lot of beef. Emperor ended on such a high note for the spider, but for most of it we really felt left hung out to dry. The story team though the last year or so before the sale really stepped it up for us.

generally though, with some time and distance, i gotta say that on the whole i didn't love Kanpeki. This is likely a consequence of my abiding passion for Daigotsu, and the fact that they are nearly polar opposites. The son of two of the most powerful Shugenja of all time, one now a god (dark fortune, whatever) and the other a dark fortune turning out to be a pro wrestler who barely mentioned his parents just felt wrong to me. saying it like this, i guess i wanted more of his father in him, or for him to pay more attention to his lineage. Which arguably was never going to happen, given a) how ragingly unpopular Daigotsu was by the end and b) that he was raised by Daigotsu's enemies. But it just felt wrong to me. I think there were other ways they could have gone with him. Honestly, Shibatsu felt more like Daigotsu's heir than Kanpeki at times.

tl;dr - i wanted more daigotsu from Kanpeki, but that was never gonna happen. The end of ivory ties it all together in a really excellent fashion, resolving a lot of the threads started as far back as Gp4. Mad Props to the fiction team.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:53 am 
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My one thought while reading the stories besides "that was awesome" was "is this Atsushi fighting Akeha or is it Shimekiri?"


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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:38 am 
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Daigotsu Atsushi wrote:
My one thought while reading the stories besides "that was awesome" was "is this Atsushi fighting Akeha or is it Shimekiri?"


i desperately wanted a Shimekiri appearance, and was hoping it was him as well

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:54 pm 
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I am so grateful that I got to read those stories.

I felt such a loss and adrift when the sale was announced, especially with how invested I got with the story and the vote that had happened during that time.

The thing I took away from it all the most, was that the option I chose for in the vote, the option that had a minority in the vote at that, was still significant enough that it would have bore fruit. It gave me a lot of relief.

It was heartening to see that both Susumu Takuan and Susumu Kuroko (and the Susumu as a whole) would survive, but to see Daigotsu Atsushi tainted was painful. I really held a hope that he would have held out against the pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:56 am 
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I really nice round up for all the clans. The Scorpion and Mantis in particular stand out as exceptional for me, while Yuhmi's sinister entrance and Tetsuo's bad ass-ness are personal favourites!

I am also a massive fan of Shibatsu, Kuroko and Takuan surviving and continuing their friendship. These 3 are probably my favourite characters from the entire Ivory arc.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Simply brilliant! Thanks a lot to the story team. They are the reason I've been so hooked on l5r. I keep telling myself that by 2017 I'll have moved on from l5r and forgotten about it but every time someone posts here with some juicy content I get a smack of nostalgia and makes me want more.

Also, do you guys think the Susumu and the order of the spider monks would have been considered the "spider clan" in the colonies. Without the Daigotsu, can you even call yourself a spider? I wonder if we would have even gotten any susumu or untainted spider monk cards/characters after the time skip.


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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:30 am 
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They were certainly being referred to as the Spider Clan, and Iwiko 2nd said that he would need all 9 Great Clans if he was ever going to defeat the Shadowland Horde. The only info about their status is pre exodus to the colonies because only the Mantis and the Crane are seen post exodius.

I highly doubt they would have stayed a great clan after the exodus to Rokugan but then the stories never really give a full extent as to how many of the Spider Clan actually broke away from what Daigotsu Kanpeki was doing.

We do know for certain is that the Susumu and the Gyushi certainly left (not that they were given a choice) and the Spider Monks also ditched Kanpeki but those two families would barely number 30 people each and the Spider Monk's aren't strictly part of the Spider Clan (though they were heavily associated with them). We have no idea as to how many Daigotsu actually embraced the taint other than 'the majority' did so I highly doubt you could count more than 100 untainted Daigotsu in that number and that is being generous.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:09 am 
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OnlyTheSpiderIsSafe wrote:
Simply brilliant! Thanks a lot to the story team. They are the reason I've been so hooked on l5r. I keep telling myself that by 2017 I'll have moved on from l5r and forgotten about it but every time someone posts here with some juicy content I get a smack of nostalgia and makes me want more.

Also, do you guys think the Susumu and the order of the spider monks would have been considered the "spider clan" in the colonies. Without the Daigotsu, can you even call yourself a spider? I wonder if we would have even gotten any susumu or untainted spider monk cards/characters after the time skip.


i can't actually quote this for certain, since the posts are gone now, and i'm going off memory, but i recall Tetsuro saying that in Onyx untainted spider, in the setting, were a thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:02 am 
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I'll second that I was disappointed in Kanpeki. His portrayal, while noting he was a powerful, brutal warrior/warlord, always managed to give him a cerebral quality that made him something beyond a simple brute - in this I feel the Bane comparisons were always apt ones, as Bane is as much brains as he is brawn, and while Kanpeki wasn't the intellect that Bane was, he wasn't a simple thug.

Tainted Kanpeki shows none of that, just being a brawling monster, which.....really saddens me. I never wanted him to be Daigotsu, even as much of a fanboy for his father that I was, I enjoyed him being his own person, a more physical presence as opposed to blazing bonfire of magical might that his father was. And now...he's just a typical Shadowlands warlord. Bleah. Color me very disappointed.

Tairo, Yuhmi, and Atsushi however, were fan-freakin'-tastic, as were Takuan and Kuroko. And Tetsuo....part of me is sad to see him join the Crab, but the rest of me knows it's a completely reasonable step, given Kanpeki betrayed everything the Order of the Spider - and their founder, Michio - believed in. Somewhere, I think Michio is smiling down on his student with approval, as Tetsuo is well living up to Michio's standard.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:21 am 
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That's the one thing I really do not understand when I read this on this topic.

How could you guys not see that this was how Daigotsu Kanpeki was going to turn out once he became tainted?

As was brought up, before he was tainted the story team made it clear that Kanpeki was putting a lot of restraint on his actions and was attempting to play the long game and it really did not suit his style. He was doing it out of necessity.

As soon as he took on the taint, there was absolutely no alternative for Kanpeki to go anywhere but to become a monster of Rage because that is exactly what he wanted. He wanted instant gratification. Not subtlety, not tricks, not cunning and certainly not humanity.

To speak Frankly, it was unrealistic to believe that Kanpeki would show any sort of cunning that came from characters such as Daigotsu, Iuchiban, Fu Leng and even Yogo Junzo. He was always set up to be a monster of pure strength, rage and brawn and he gave up the only thing that was holding that back.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Daigotsu Yuzu wrote:
That's the one thing I really do not understand when I read this on this topic.

How could you guys not see that this was how Daigotsu Kanpeki was going to turn out once he became tainted?


Because that's not how Kanpeki was at all??? His father certainly wasn't and he was tainted all his life. Why does taint, all of a sudden, become 'monster' when Kanpeki gets it?

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:43 am 
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Sparks wrote:
Daigotsu Yuzu wrote:
That's the one thing I really do not understand when I read this on this topic.

How could you guys not see that this was how Daigotsu Kanpeki was going to turn out once he became tainted?


Because that's not how Kanpeki was at all??? His father certainly wasn't and he was tainted all his life. Why does taint, all of a sudden, become 'monster' when Kanpeki gets it?


It was exactly how Daigotsu Kanpeki was as a character before his taint and specifically touched up in Scene's from the Empire. The man was prone to Violent episodes and regularly had to resist the urge to murder his staff. I'll even quote it here and here's a link. http://imperialassembly.com/news.php?news=83

Quote:
Daigotsu Kanpeki entered the silent sanctuary of his personal suite of rooms with an audible sigh of relief. The worrisome nagging of his various functionaries had been on the brink of causing him a violent episode, the sort which had in the past resulted in the death of at least one of said functionaries. It was satisfying, somewhat cathartic, but ultimately inconvenient in the replacement of such individuals, so he tried to avoid it whenever possible.


Daigotsu was an exceptional human being, quite easily a rival to the Kami's themselves, he is not a good base level to dictate how the Taint effects people. I personally would go as far to say that, of all the tainted leaders of the Shadowlands Hordes/Spider Clan, Daigotsu is the only exception to the rule that Taint Means monster. His grasp of his own willpower and forward planning is the only reason that the Spider were able to become a great clan in the first place.

The Tainted didn't just suddenly become 'monster' either. From at least 2008, some 8 years ago, and going by the l5r 3rd edition rp book, the taint has meant becoming a monster for the vast majority of those who contract it, to the point that once they have enough taint in them to become lost, they are forever a slave of Jigoku. And lets not forget that L5R is filled to the brim with stories of men and women falling to the taint and becoming monsters. Hell, lets take it all the way back to Fu Leng, an actual god, was corrupted by Jigoku. From the beginning of Rokugan history, The Tainted has meant monster. People would not be executed for having too much taint if it did not equal monster. It's erroneous to suggest otherwise.

3rd edition rpg, those tainted could be called upon at any time to make a tn 40 willpower check to try and retain control, and failure of just one roll means that Jigoku could literally dictate what the character does for as long as it wants. Even exceptionally high willpowered characters would struggle to reliably succeed in one of these rolls. Just for reference, in the Vacant Throne book, Daigotsu has a Willpower of 6, and even he would struggle to consistently pass this test.

4th edition rpg, the most up to date rules for the Taint get even worse. As soon as you become lost, there is no roll and you instantly lose your character to become an npc when they reach this level of the taint. The only people who can retain their own willpower beyond this have to have at least one ring at level 6. Daigotsu just before his death had 2 rings at level 6 (his ring of earth and ring of fire, from the Great Clans book). Daigotsu Kanpeki's highest ring is 5 (again both Earth and Fire, from the Imperial Histories 2).

So by the most up to date rules for the RPG, Daigotsu Kanpeki gaining the taint would mean that he has one outcome, he'd become the rage monster he was depicted as in the last stories published. Of course this is following a strict by the rules interpretation of the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:56 am 
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My primary beef with trying to use rpg rules here is that they predate Daigotsu's apotheosis. There's no way that Dags turns his beloved son's brain to mush when he gets the taint. There's just no way. If and for all Kanpeki demonstrates he's capable of violent outbursts there are just as many examples of him being calculating. Him being reduced to a screaming berserker who is outwitted by a simple double cross just feels like a gross reduction of his character


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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:20 am 
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True, they predate Daigotsu's ascension into Godhood and becoming the Master of Jigoku, but we are given no evidence to suggest that the fundamentals of the taint change except for how it is spread and we are only told that humans have to accept the taint before they can contract it. There is absolutely no evidence to say that it is not just as degenerative as it was before Daigotsu's ascension and there is no evidence to say that Kanpeki would be immune to those degenerative effects either. All that exists is an assumption that Daigotsu could spare Kanpeki of it's negative effects.

I'd also put forward that the fact that Daigotsu Kanpeki tried hand over fist to contract and accept the taint but it all meant nothing until he sacrificed his own wife, is proof that Daigotsu is not in complete control of the taint. If Daigotsu was in full control of the taint, why did he not just give it to his son? Why make Kanpeki beg and pay for it so harshly? Seems to me that if he had complete control of Jigoku, that he doesn't completely love his son as much as some may think.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:10 am 
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I'm still holding out hope for a reveal that Daigotsu was actually eaten by Jigoku and is being perpetually digested somewhere in its recesses while Jigoku itself impersonates him and the other dark fortunes when interacting with Rokugani. An inverted Messianic metaphor.


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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:13 pm 
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Daigotsu Yuzu wrote:
True, they predate Daigotsu's ascension into Godhood and becoming the Master of Jigoku, but we are given no evidence to suggest that the fundamentals of the taint change except for how it is spread and we are only told that humans have to accept the taint before they can contract it. There is absolutely no evidence to say that it is not just as degenerative as it was before Daigotsu's ascension and there is no evidence to say that Kanpeki would be immune to those degenerative effects either. All that exists is an assumption that Daigotsu could spare Kanpeki of it's negative effects.

I'd also put forward that the fact that Daigotsu Kanpeki tried hand over fist to contract and accept the taint but it all meant nothing until he sacrificed his own wife, is proof that Daigotsu is not in complete control of the taint. If Daigotsu was in full control of the taint, why did he not just give it to his son? Why make Kanpeki beg and pay for it so harshly? Seems to me that if he had complete control of Jigoku, that he doesn't completely love his son as much as some may think.


i think its stretching the imagination to say that Daigotsu can control how the taint spreads, can create dark fortunes, and be the lord of jigoku, but cannot in fact control what affect the taint has. i'll grant its never explicitly stated, but personally i think its moderately preposterous.

putting that aside, i'm on much firmer ground with regards to kanpeki's tainting. your interpretation of that story is completely bonkers upside down cats and dogs backwards. first, Daigotsu made it clear on multiple occasions he wanted his son pure. Kanpeki's inability to gain it immediately is not proof Daigotsu can't control it, its the opposite. the story makes it clear that Daigotsu is resisting giving his son the taint, but his son demonstrates his resolve with the death of his wife. it also demonstrates how much the taint has changed. when would the taint ever before have declined to take a willing soul, before or after the apotheosis? you've got that entire scene entirely on its head. Its a powerful story because, for the first time, Kanpeki is breaking away from his father's vision for him, and Daigotsu is resisting, holding him back, until Kanpeki demonstrates the total resolve for which he is famous. This is further evidence of why his raging beefcake depiction bothers me so much. he's got an indomitable will. his wrath is to be feared not because it controls him but because he was raised under Shourido and is not afraid of his anger and is willing to use that anger as much as he is honor or guile or economics or any other tool available to him.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:05 pm 
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To believe that Daigotsu could not change the very nature of something that comes from Jigoku isn't that far fetched. He couldn't, for example, change the opinions of any Oni that refused his rule and they are just as much of a part of Jigoku as the Taint is. In my mind, it is easier to stop something from spreading than it is to change the symptoms but my opinion doesn't matter, facts do.

I'll admit, that it had been a while since I had read Embrace the Darkness and I did indeed remember it very very wrong. I went back to read it again just to reacquaint myself with the story.

It is certainly implied that Daigotsu was refusing to give Kanpeki the taint, but it is not proof that he can change it's fundamentals, only that Daigotsu can refuse it's transmission. It does not prove that the Taint has changed beyond its transmission. I would say that it proves my point that it is just as Monstrous and detrimental as it has ever been and that Kanpeki was not immune.

http://imperialassembly.com/news.php?news=117

Quote:
The fire in his heart became an inferno. Kanpeki felt it spread through his veins, his muscles, his entire body. He clenched his fists as the Taint remolded him, transformed him into an inhuman weapon every fiber of his being dedicated to the destruction of others. The pain was incredible, but only fueled his rage further. Power flooded through Kanpeki's form, filling him with a strength he had never dreamt of.

"Father!" he shouted. "I will strike them down in your name, father!"

Kanpeki had knelt as a man. He rose up as a monster.

He looked down at his fallen wife. He remembered everything about her, but all love was gone. There was only hate and anger at the Empire which had forced him to take her life. He walked to the temple doors ignoring the sickening crunch of the dead bodies under his feet. He stepped out, flanked by statues of his parents. Outside, hundreds of samurai awaited, in the warm air of the Colonies. They prostrated themselves as their lord emerged from the temple.


It specifically stated from this point that the taint completely changed him. As it said, he only has Hatred and Rage, that any sort of love that he had is gone. And once he rose up he had become the monster we see in the last stories published.

I'll reiterate, the only change to the taint with any proof to back it up is Daigotsu changing how someone obtains it and that he refused to give it to Kanpeki to begin with. Anything else beyond that is purely speculation because there is zero proof to back it up beyond 'well they don't say that it has not changed'.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:39 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
My primary beef with trying to use rpg rules here is that they predate Daigotsu's apotheosis. There's no way that Dags turns his beloved son's brain to mush when he gets the taint. There's just no way. If and for all Kanpeki demonstrates he's capable of violent outbursts there are just as many examples of him being calculating. Him being reduced to a screaming berserker who is outwitted by a simple double cross just feels like a gross reduction of his character


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I developed my own take on Daigotsu's transcendent power and its limitations based on Spooky's Embrace the Darkness fiction and my own personal experience as Daigotsu Tsubaki in WC4: Daigotsu cannot show compassion, for to do so would be to expose his own weakness in the eyes of the Realm. Any expression of sympathy or grace must be twisted into something even more cruel and perverted in order for Jigoku to perceive him as its master. Daigotsu wants to help his people and especially Kanpeki, but he is still bound by Jigoku's wanton lust for chaos. His best bet is to hope that whatever "blessings" he provides, the petitioner will be strong enough to accept its consequences or possess the insight to outwit the taint themselves, hence why the Spider place such emphasis on the philosophy of Shourido.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:41 am 
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I like that explanation as to what Daigotsu can do as Jigoku's master Zarasu. I firmly believe that to change the nature of what the taint does to a person, Daigotsu would have to change the very nature of Jigoku itself, and I don't think even a god could have that power or else Fu Leng would never have succumb to the taint himself.

Another thing to ask. If hypothetically the taint was changed to have reduced consequences or did not make the bearer into a slave to Jigoku (Even if that only applied to Daigotsu Kanpeki), then doesn't that knock all wind out of Tetsuo's rebellion?

The idea that the Taint has no consequences just rankles in the gut. It would stand to reason that if the consequences were reduced or removed, then the benefits that it provides should be greatly reduced as well because if they are not, then it just becomes a unfair, cheap way for the bad guys to get extra power, sorta like a Jigoku Super Power Vending machine.

The Taint could make someone extremely powerful, but if they only have to pay lip service to Jigoku then they aren't playing enough of a cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:07 am 
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Daigotsu Yuzu wrote:

Another thing to ask. If hypothetically the taint was changed to have reduced consequences or did not make the bearer into a slave to Jigoku (Even if that only applied to Daigotsu Kanpeki), then doesn't that knock all wind out of Tetsuo's rebellion?


That would be an excellent argument to bring up should a hypothetical situation like that ever occur in canon... or perhaps even an apocryphal role-playing scenario. :poof:

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:29 am 
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Daigotsu Yuzu wrote:
To believe that Daigotsu could not change the very nature of something that comes from Jigoku isn't that far fetched. He couldn't, for example, change the opinions of any Oni that refused his rule and they are just as much of a part of Jigoku as the Taint is. In my mind, it is easier to stop something from spreading than it is to change the symptoms but my opinion doesn't matter, facts do.


i think the oni example is not a great one. its a bit like saying because you can't change the thoughts of your citizens you can't change the laws. Goddesses part 4 says the oni can rebel because they have free will, as well as saying that as the Dark Lord of Jigoku he can control the Taint. its not clear on the degree of that control, and Susumu is the one speaking, so theres an unreliable narrator thing there, but i think based on the fallout we can generally trust, at least, that the oni's free will is why they cannot be controlled, and its not an apples to apples thing with the taint.

Daigotsu Yuzu wrote:
I'll admit, that it had been a while since I had read Embrace the Darkness and I did indeed remember it very very wrong. I went back to read it again just to reacquaint myself with the story.

It is certainly implied that Daigotsu was refusing to give Kanpeki the taint, but it is not proof that he can change it's fundamentals, only that Daigotsu can refuse it's transmission. It does not prove that the Taint has changed beyond its transmission. I would say that it proves my point that it is just as Monstrous and detrimental as it has ever been and that Kanpeki was not immune.

It specifically stated from this point that the taint completely changed him. As it said, he only has Hatred and Rage, that any sort of love that he had is gone. And once he rose up he had become the monster we see in the last stories published.

I'll reiterate, the only change to the taint with any proof to back it up is Daigotsu changing how someone obtains it and that he refused to give it to Kanpeki to begin with. Anything else beyond that is purely speculation because there is zero proof to back it up beyond 'well they don't say that it has not changed'.


we'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of that story. i did not read that as saying his mind was immediately obliterated with rage, nor do i believe the fact that he would proceed to conquer rokugan supports that theory. if brute tainted force were sufficient to conquer rokugan, fu leng would have done in a couple times over. arguably Kanpeki's advantage is his fusion of rokugani upbringing and the taint, something his father didn't even have. Daigotsu might have aped Rokugani traditions, and sought to forge a dark mirror of Rokugan (successfully, i think) but he was raised in Jigoku. Kanpeki is Rokugani. i think thats an edge, but only if he's not a mindless beast.

Daigotsu Yuzu wrote:
I like that explanation as to what Daigotsu can do as Jigoku's master Zarasu. I firmly believe that to change the nature of what the taint does to a person, Daigotsu would have to change the very nature of Jigoku itself, and I don't think even a god could have that power or else Fu Leng would never have succumb to the taint himself.

Another thing to ask. If hypothetically the taint was changed to have reduced consequences or did not make the bearer into a slave to Jigoku (Even if that only applied to Daigotsu Kanpeki), then doesn't that knock all wind out of Tetsuo's rebellion?

The idea that the Taint has no consequences just rankles in the gut. It would stand to reason that if the consequences were reduced or removed, then the benefits that it provides should be greatly reduced as well because if they are not, then it just becomes a unfair, cheap way for the bad guys to get extra power, sorta like a Jigoku Super Power Vending machine.

The Taint could make someone extremely powerful, but if they only have to pay lip service to Jigoku then they aren't playing enough of a cost.


i should be clear that i'm absolutely not advocating that Daigotsu has completely changed the taint to be all positive no negative. we know, in fact, that its not. we've got a couple of pieces of fiction that demonstrate it iirc. i'm saying simply that of the various possibly corruptive effects that the taint can have on a person, mindless bestial rage is not the one that would afflict Kanpeki, if for no other reason than because his father controls the taint and can simply say so by fiat. its well established canon that theres are many ways for the taint to manifest. not all who accept the taint become mindless monsters, and virtually none of them do so immediately. take, for example, Kanpeki's parents, who were tainted basically their entire lives and who never demonstrated that kind of corruptive effect.

my argument has simply been that Daigotsu would not permit the taint to destroy his son's mind, assuming thats the kind of corruption that Kanpeki would get anyway. that part of the fiction rubbed me the wrong way because i didn't believe he'd end up that way naturally, even if Daigotsu hadn't been who and what he was.

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:48 am 
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somewhat unrelated:

i've always kind of hated, as i mentioned above, the direction the Kanpeki took. interesting to see that apparently this was not always what was envisioned for him:

http://www.kazenoshiro.com/kazenoshiro/7/herald2212.php

Quote:
Ultimately, what is Daigotsu's purpose in this bold new venture? What does he hope to accomplish in the creation of this Spider Clan? It is a gesture of respect for his god, the dark lord Fu Leng, that is true. It is likewise true that he wishes to incense the most righteous among the clans, driving them to fervor and misdirecting their wrath to straw men and sacrificial lambs. The entire endeavor is a plot to undermine and infiltrate the Great Clans to such an extend that it is possible for the Lost to finally seize control of the Empire of Rokugan. All of these things are true, and yet there is more: Daigotsu has a son. His son shall be the perfect union of Fu Leng's blessing and the Hantei bloodline. When he grows to be a man, he will be a warrior and a sorcerer the likes of which the world has never known. Daigotsu has vowed that his son will, upon the day of his gempukku, inherit an empire, and from that empire conquer the world. This much is certain. It has been foretold in a prophecy of blood, and nothing can avert it. Daigotsu has sworn that he shall be the herald of a new order, an order of darkness. There is no room for doubt.

(emphasis mine)

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 Post subject: Re: Ivory Arc Concluded
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:36 am 
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Kind of funny to think about Kanpekis death then. "Father! We finally meet, I was emperor! Our dreams came true!" "I am so very disappointed in you"-D


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