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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:32 am 
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Kanpeki the Emperor should name his wife as the Fortune of Sacrifice.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:46 am 
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Tetsuhiko wrote:
Kanpeki the Emperor should name his wife as the Fortune of Sacrifice.


Subordinate Fortune to Shahai?

... now I wonder what the Fortune of Blood thought of her daughter-in-law.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:01 am 
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Tetsuhiko wrote:
Kanpeki the Emperor should name his wife as the Fortune of Sacrifice.


MMMMMMMHHHHHHHHH.... So freaking spot on! I mean we DO have a fortune that hasn't been named yet that is supposed to come from the spider!

Make it happen!

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:39 am 
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Shahai is a Dark Fortune, the Fortune of Sacrifice shpuldn't be tainted. It would be an even greater jab in the face of the Empire.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:55 am 
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And how would Kanpeki raise a non-Dark Fortune? He reigns without the blessing of Tengoku, in explicit defiance of Tengoku's chosen dynasty.

I mean, he can certainly declare his wife to be a Fortune if he so wishes, just as he can declare her to be a fish, and he can kill anyone under his power who disagrees. But the decree would have no metaphysical weight.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:22 am 
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Daidoji Tacticus wrote:
And how would Kanpeki raise a non-Dark Fortune? He reigns without the blessing of Tengoku, in explicit defiance of Tengoku's chosen dynasty.

I mean, he can certainly declare his wife to be a Fortune if he so wishes, just as he can declare her to be a fish, and he can kill anyone under his power who disagrees. But the decree would have no metaphysical weight.


Being a fortune does not mean having to be tied to Tengoku, both Emma O and the lords of death became fortunes without the need of Tengoku. Both were non rokugani divine beings to boot.

Also he could just make her a dark fortune. Susumu was not tainted when he died and he was fine...

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:33 am 
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Daidoji Tacticus wrote:
And how would Kanpeki raise a non-Dark Fortune? He reigns without the blessing of Tengoku, in explicit defiance of Tengoku's chosen dynasty.

I mean, he can certainly declare his wife to be a Fortune if he so wishes, just as he can declare her to be a fish, and he can kill anyone under his power who disagrees. But the decree would have no metaphysical weight.


This is an assumption. If Tengoku did not want this to occur, why did it not stop it? Some would say the fact that Tengoku allowed it to occur is passive endorsement. Do we have any examples of past emperors who assumed the role 'incorrectly' not having the power to name fortunes? Not having the backing of Tengoku once they actually sat on the throne? I always thought the celestial heavens really didn't question too deeply who sat there, but treated them all the same no matter how they got there, or how consumed by taint or shadow they may have been.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:02 pm 
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It might not be a perfect exemple, but the Black Crysenthemum used to name Fortunes to punish his opponents. The Fortunes of Dung comes to mind.

While he has official backing from the Heavens, he abused hia authority on more than one occasion. Although I believe it falls into the "Tengoku doesn't care" category.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Actually, now that we're on the subject, which Shourido Virtue would sacrificing-your-own-life-for-the-cause fall under? Will? Determination?


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:19 pm 
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Why would Kanpeki arrange for his wife to be in Tengoku when clearly nothing he values resides there? I think the one person he loved, the person who, clear-eyed and clear-headed offered her life to let him take the Taint and set his plans in motion is easily worthy of Dark Fortunehood.

Dark Fortune of Sacrifice, Dark Fortune of Loss, Dark Fortune of Sorrow, hell, the possibilities are endless.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:30 pm 
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An all-Spider fiction? That is an unexpected surprise, Max!

I like the fiction, up to the way the spiders summarise what was happening in the vignettes. It nicely illustrates the state of the clan, or rather the two clans, advances the story and introduces and develops important characters.

The resolution of our 2011 prizes, while overdue, are very much appreciated. It's great that they aren't for the Kanpeki-ruled Spider only, but for the the Rokugani Empire. And it's also the Imperial Matchmaker, not just one matchmaker, that's even more awesome. Masumi could rise to much power in a decimated, exiled Rokugan Empire. And there's a nod to our Winter Court's delegation that emphasised (maybe created?) the Spider's tradition of matching beloved ones (which, in return, is a nod to the customs of City of the Lost). I'm definitely looking forward to read about the Susumu and Shibatsu again, but I always liked the concept of serving two masters. With Susumu Shibatsu now as official Spider Champion (so Seiken is now the Emperor and made this edict happen?) it should not be too difficult to help the Spider grow in numbers. A favour to the Emperor's brother, who takes up a task given him by Seiken, usually means political clout, after all. What surprises me is that only one Gyushi has sworn fealty to Shibatsu. Kageto was supposed to be married to a Tamori as per Winter Court. It would be a shame if the treaties involving the Gyushi marriages with the Dragon and Unicorn were never to happen. Shugenja who are only recently married into the Gyushi to follow Kanpeki over Seiken would be very weird.

And the Chuda are back, alongside some new maho tricks. Yeah! It's also interesting that Chuda Teraiko says Mishime would have disappeared. As far as we know he was murdered during a coup, so this could point to the surviving Chuda reinventing parts of their history. Kaede is scary and unbalanced. A bit too much, if she were not a Ninube, but with parts of identity lost, to be subtle about what reminds you who you are probably doesn't work.

Most of the story prizes were resolved very subtle, you needed to know what they are to recognise them. I like that a lot. And there are some story prizes left for us to look Forward to. It surprises me that a Monk and courtier of the Order of Benten teaches martial arts and kiho to Omigawa, who spreads it to his students, but now I want to read more of Yunmen (and of Omigawa, if he is not dead yet).

However, as others have mentioned, that Kanpeki killed his wife in order to receive the Taint lacks a needed explanation for me. I can buy that he only thinks that he is untainted and needed something to fuel his rage. But the offer of Machiko comes out of nowhere. As an Otomo she doesn't seem to be an expert on Taint and blood sacrifices, after all. I presume a hidden reason for her desire to be killed by Kanpeki, but I don't buy that she knows better than Kanpeki that he would get tainted (feel tainted) once he kills her.

All in all, it's a great Spider fiction, Max. Keep them coming. And also keep the Story Team policy that characters can be chosen for story prizes rather than only carded Personalities. Thus we can choose the Matchmaker and other Susumu.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:33 pm 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
Dark Fortune of Sacrifice, Dark Fortune of Loss, Dark Fortune of Sorrow, hell, the possibilities are endless.


I second the idea of deifying Machiko. She is the very first Lady Spider in the Clan's history, after all. Even if we saw too few and too little of her to actually know much about her character.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:16 pm 
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Fudo4Life wrote:
Actually, now that we're on the subject, which Shourido Virtue would sacrificing-your-own-life-for-the-cause fall under? Will? Determination?


I support this 100%. "Sacrifice" is a weak term. For me, she didn't sacrifice her life, she offered it. This shows much determination from her, which is why the Dark Fortune of Determination title best suits her.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:56 pm 
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How about the Dark Fortune of Devotion?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:06 pm 
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Suko wrote:
How about the Dark Fortune of Devotion?

We got a winner I think. :geek:

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:56 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
i've been pondering this subject since i read it and i have THOUGHTS.

Daigotsu the Man vs Daigotsu the God. much as it pains me to suggest that perhaps there are elements that i loved about the former that the latter has no need for, i think we can assume thats the case. and even if its not, just because Daigotsu was a dedicated family man, thats not to say he's going to force that upon every person who wants the taint, his son being no exception. i would argue that in point of fact he's going to ask MORE of his son than anyone else who as EVER asked for the taint up to that point. Because no one else has ever had so much done in order to keep him pure. it has never cost any other human being so much to NOT have the taint. the sacrifice required to throw off that purity must be great.

it has nothing to do with Daigotsu's love of his wife. it has everything to do with sacrifice.

Quote:
But Kanpeki could not deny that he genuinely loved her. She was the only source of positive emotion in his life. She was his link to his own humanity.


Kanpeki's purity was bought with the life of one who loved him. it only makes sense that his corruption should require the life of one he loved. the symmetry is metaphysically appropriate, and that it will cause him no end of spiritual agony will please the god to whom he is sacrificing. His father is still a god of evil, for all he is his father.

edit: this isn't as coherent as i could make it. i'm packing for gencon. tl;dr Daigotsu the god doesn't necessarily use his own family devotion as a barometer for how his son should act. furthermore kanpeki was purified at incredible cost. taking the taint should cost him terribly and the cost should be symbolically symmetrical to what it cost Daigotsu to purify Kanpeki.



^ Clap clap

Daigotsu is not acting out of character, imo. He tried to protect Kanpeki by refusing to grant him the taint. He tried so hard that Kanpeki had no choice but to sacrifice his wife to show his determination.

This is what I imagine in my head:

K: Dad, Can I have it?
D: No
K: Pretty please? I'll kill those dude for you.
D: I say No. Its for your own good.
K: Comeon Dad... I'll throw in my wife as a bonus
D: I say N...
*Stab
D: Holy shit! What have you done? *Will wavered, control of Taint slipped*
K: Haha! Took it!


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:32 am 
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Suko wrote:
How about the Dark Fortune of Devotion?


Call Max, we've got a submission for the ST! :ugeek:


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:47 am 
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From WordReference.com:

sac•ri•fice /ˈsækrəˌfaɪs/
n., v., -ficed, -fic•ing.

n.
[uncountable] the offering of life or of some object to a deity, as for forgiveness or worship:

"Their practices included human sacrifice."

Dunno... Dark Fortune of Sacrifice sounds pretty accurate to me :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:49 am 
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Well, if we want to keep this tied to Shourido, a few choices present themselves. Certainly Will or maybe Insight.... but really, I think Determination. As defined as a virtue, it is seeing a thing through to it's conclusion, no matter what. And that is certainly what she facilitated. She gave all to ensure his ascension. That's Determination.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:08 am 
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While Determination certainly fits, as a general notefor the future, Dark Fortunes need correspond no more to Shourido Virtues than regular Fortunes do to Bushido virtues.

Blood, Deception, and Obsession are hardly the lynchpins of Shourido as a code.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:27 am 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
You know, I turned my opinions around about the whole *stab the wife for power thing* after a good nights sleep as it seems to be more about his sacrifice for his ambition which is fine. He needed to prove his devotion, not to Daigotsu but himself. She knew that and sacrificed herself for him out of love. Viewing it from her perspective makes it more meaningful.


I've been saying that the Spider Clan is about sacrifice. Not fear. Remember that Daigotsu also sacrificed himself so his son would become Emperor.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:45 am 
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Seppun Kyosuta wrote:
TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
You know, I turned my opinions around about the whole *stab the wife for power thing* after a good nights sleep as it seems to be more about his sacrifice for his ambition which is fine. He needed to prove his devotion, not to Daigotsu but himself. She knew that and sacrificed herself for him out of love. Viewing it from her perspective makes it more meaningful.


I've been saying that the Spider Clan is about sacrifice. Not fear. Remember that Daigotsu also sacrificed himself so his son would become Emperor.


I sacrifice Naibu as much as possible to Onyx Ascendance. And let's not forget Teruo. I for one welcome our new Expendable overlords.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:19 am 
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Sora for Master Sensei!!!

An interesting way to start the series, to be sure, what with Kanpeki angle-deep in Walker blood trying to get Tainted (not that I dislike the Walkers; I'd like to see some more of them fight hard for their beliefs in the fiction, even win a round or two, though it seems more Embracing will be on-camera for the time being). Having Kanpeki kill Machiko (I miss her already), right after she mentions having a daughter, was a bit much for my tastes, but adds an appropriate 'darkness' to the matter. The return of the Chuda is welcomed, as well as Ninube and (my favorite among the two) the Goju-having-a-sense-of-humor-about-the-Dragon-and-Scorpion (made my day).

And Then Sora Just Damn Stole First Place and flew off with it, to the tune of Omigawa's hidden training. :twisted:
So yeah, looking forward to more Shourido-in-action monks. Especially since this quasi-rivalry with the Kokujin is just.... delicious.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:42 am 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
I HOPE the sohei dont represent the SAA group, Michio was a bro but SAA never questioned seizing the throne nor opposed Jigoku when necessary... SAA was about the Dark Paragons, NOT the Order of the Spider.


I am fine with the monks being the poster boys for Shourido, they are bad asses and I love their archetype.

They are humans, nothing more. Yet they have the strength and skill to overcome opponents far beyond them. They are untainted, and can therefore wonder the empire freely, yet worship Daigotsu as fervently as any tainted samurai. That must really piss off all the other clans who can do nothing about it and must simply put up with them right on their doorstep. Their view on the taint literally puts them at odds with the Daigotsu but they remain true to their beliefs regardless, and prove that theirway is just as good. The new quote from Tetsuo says it all:

"Accept the taint if you need it, lackey. I do not need His Blessing to complete His work."

I don't see them being against taking the throne, more against how it's happening. They see the Spider taking the throne by being stronger and better than every other contender. If you need the taint to achieve that then you are unworthy. I was about to say I was confused why they have forsaken their loyalty to Kanpeki for accepting the taint, but I guess I may have just answered my own question...

However, I 100% agree that I don't want the Shourido path to be exclusive to the monks, just as I hope Walk the Light encompasses more that just the Susumu and the odd other dudes. My favourite archetype from Emperor was Dark Paragons and would love to have them return, especially after Shourido got so much support.

I agree that Machiko's sacrifice felt rushed. A bit more indecision from Kanpeki would have given him that humanity that the player base is going to need if we're ever going to get them rooting for him. I agree with ItsyBitsy's suggestion about having it torment Kanpeki later on, it will just make him a bit more three dimensional as a villain.

TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
@ Max: you don't have to force this into fiction now, but I would like to later see him suffer from this action in the future. Like someone brings him the fish she would make for him and he almost kills them, or he is protective of his daughter as "she has her mother's eyes" or something that shows the hole it caused in him. If it's the greatest sacrifice he could make I would like to se him haunted by it, quiet moments leading to him reflecting, thinking of her, feeling pain before it is washed away into his rage. It would add a nice layer of complexity to Kanpeki, which he needs..


Other than that, loved everything!

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction - Embracing the Darkness (basically everyone)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:50 am 
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Pretty much my view as well. The monks work for Shourido... But CCG wise they are already showing that they can't balance Monk Kensai at all, trying to throw dark virtues into the mix as well... Nah bro...

Especially when the Daigotsu samurai need a theme besides "fear is good guys, we swear!". Give me back my dark paragons! I don't care if they are tainted... ALL of the dark paragons printed except Michio, pre unleash Kanpeki, and that one other monk have been shadowlands tainted, there is no precedent for the idea that Shourido needs to not be tainted.

It's probably where they are going... But I wish they wouldn't.

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