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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:42 pm 
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Shimane wrote:
The very fact that we're all here arguing over who betrayed whom, who was justified, and who is the actual victim, shows that the Story Team played this one well.


I disagree. There is betrayal insofar that Seiken removes Kanpeki. But that's not what I have an issue with. The issue is with the fact that Iweko claims that Daigotsu betrayed the Empire first (and she cannot be wrong, because she is the divine Empress). And we see Kanpeki more or less declaring war on his Emperor. He is clearly in the wrong. A samurai does not answer a demotion with revolt, let alone unleashing demons.

That's what I dislike. The fiction's outcome is not: Kanpeki is right to openly fight against his Emperor. After this fiction, he is preparing his revenge, because he feels slighted, and publicly is slighted. Or is Iweko calling Daigotsu a traitor enough to raise arms? The fiction leaves me with the Impression that, yes, Kanpeki has a good reason for his hatred, but not to revolt. Maybe the other two installments will help, but traditionally, they are about the other clans without a vignette.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:47 pm 
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Discussions about which side broke the treaty


We can argue this point until we are blue in the face, but the fact remains it was a diplomatic treaty, drawn up in a time of war, that both parties attempted to subvert in order to protect their interests. Neither side truly intended to honor it forever, and I wouldn't imagine that Daigotsu would have entered it believing so either. There is no right or wrong here, because the entire situation is very ambiguous. Kanpeki initially threatens the Emperor when Seiken says he's going to remove him. In response, Iweko boasts that she has essentially neutralized both Daigotsu and Kanpeki as a threat, appearing unafraid of both while publicly humiliating the latter in front of the Clan Champions. As Spider, the larger question is this: do you want Kanpeki to just lie down and take it, or do you expect him to enact revenge for the humiliation?

A huge problem with the way that many people approach L5R is that a) samurai are infallible creatures that always make the right decisions, b) samurai can never act contrary to expectation or convention, and c) any attempt to write characters that act outside the system, or even selfishly, is a detriment to the narrative. What we got in this story is a human moment where everyone involved made questionable decisions that will escalate an upcoming conflict. We project our own feelings and hindsight observations, when, in fact, what happened in this moment was completely logical (Seiken screws over the Spider, Kanpeki threatens him, Iwekozan boasts and humiliates him, Kanpeki leaves incredibly pissed off). It's not perfect and a little underwhelming given the hype behind it, but it still works.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:48 pm 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
shibajhomer wrote:
Can someone point out the bit where it says that Kenpeki will be the champion of the Spider forever, in the deal? If that were true, then no matter what he did he would be unremoveable, a situation that is just not viable. As I see it some of the Spider players only want to be loyal to the Empire as long as they feel it is in their own interest. Other clans have had far worse and still remained loyal.

If that were the case, then Iweko I would have had to find a way to make Kanpeki immortal, otherwise even a natural death would trigger the resumption of the war between Jigoku and Tengoku.


No it wouldn't, because he was made Champion, but then was removed. If my club win a football cup, but then don't make it to the finals next year, It doesn't mean that they were never champions. If I say I'm going to give you a silver dollar and then you lose it, it doesn't mean that I never gave you a silver dollar. Or a closer to home example, If I say I will make you king of your nation and then someone baeats the living snot out of you and takes your throne by force, it doesn't mean that I have reneged on my deal. The deal I made with you is still valid, I kept my part. It's not lawyery Audax, it's pretty straight forward.

Hope you are well anyway, I miss the Crane chat.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:49 pm 
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Quote:
Ultimately, this story shows that both Iweko I and Daigotsu went into the initial bargain regarding the Spider Clan with no intention of every truly honoring it.

Iweko I planned to have Kanpeki deposed once her son was on the throne, violating the terms under which Daigotsu gave his life.

Daigotsu planned to only hold the Taint back from having any impact on people, not actually making them immune to it. Just latent.

Iweko I then used the power of Tengoku to make her people as safe as she agreed them to be.

In the middle of this are Seiken, Shibatsu, and Kanpeki, three sons of divine entities who were willing to lie to each other because they each felt they were smarter than the other.

Seiken and Kanpeki both come out of this as brash, showing their hands before they had to. Only Shibatsu has the decency to realize that this all? Is going to be a very big mistake.



Sndwurks hit the best interpretation for this plot with this right here he posted in the AEG forum thread...

Its just Iweko and Daigotsu still at it, playing a massive game with all of Rokugan. For better or worse both have been positioning themselves to preemptively strike each other, both knew the other was untrustworthy, and both were using their very children as pawns.

This scene was both Kanpeki and Seiken facing off, only to know that both really weren't in charge, the parents were. This scene led to the curtain being drawn to all of the Champions in a way probably both Iweko and Daigotsu didnt want. Both had been playing their cards under the table, now they see where they stand and war has to happen, the gig is up for both of them.

I'll live with that, its not Seiken or Kaneki's faults, they are minor players in this game and now they realize it. Without Iweko coming to the rescue Seiken was in a load of trouble and same for Kanpeki with his father. If the remaining stories are about all three of the sons, Seiken, Shiabatsu and Kanpeki each questioning the places they are in then I'll be satisfied.

In the end, this situation is the blame of both Iweko and Daigotsu for carrying on the long war when peace should have existed.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:00 pm 
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Daigotsu Yoshiro wrote:
It's not perfect and a little underwhelming given the hype behind it, but it still works.


Not as neatly as you say. Because we don't just have humans in the story. The divine Iweko must be right when she says that Daigotsu attempted treachery. She doesn't lie, or not that we know of and she is heavenly insight. Not all the time, but she should have in this case.

So Daigotsu is a traitor and Kanpeki will keep being his ally. That's at least where the story leaves us. We know how the plots ends, but the removal as Champion isn't, at least not to me, the big betrayal that justifies a coup, let alone summoning Hell to Earth. Revolting would be human, if only to keep your power. But this makes Kanpeki clearly the bad guy. That's not what I expected after what I read and heard about how the betrayal would be. But maybe I was expecting too much when I thought Kanpeki unleashing Jigoku would be justified. After this fiction it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:05 pm 
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In my opinion the whole thing reads like standard politician jockeying. Neither side WANTS to look like the bad guy in this scenario, so they cast blame at each other until someone runs out of cards to play. Kanpeki, of course, has very few "not bad guy" cards and Seiken picks up several more simply by virtue of being Emperor so there never really was a question of "who was going to be the bad guy" in this scenario.

Now, as to the question of taint negation. We've only seen the front room version of this statement. The Wrath of Daigotsu is a pretty big sword hanging over the Empire's head, and if Seiken can convince the clans that he's negated the main "sudden-but-inevitable-betrayal" trick the Spider had, they'll ALL be on board with the ritual shunning of the freaks (except, you know, anyone who practices their empathy for a minute or two). But the Backroom version might be substantially different--and honestly I'm expecting it will be. Jigoku is the grade-A bad guy of the setting and outright negating the twisting nightmare of the taint is probably both an exaggeration at least (if not outright lie), and substantially costly. In any case I'd like to see that back room scene before I go full table-flip.

I personally enjoyed that exchange. I liked that the whole thing would be a slap in the face to ANYONE in power and Kanpeki is within his character designation to go full "defying gravity/let it go" super villain over it. I liked knowing what the "walk in the light" spider would look like (Shibatsu is a good "replacement" champion--especially since I can imagine the face/true face divide reestablishing itself from Samurai Edition, which is not a bad thing by any stretch) and I enjoyed a number of the other scenes (who's the Agasha Daimyo right now? Because I think I would like to know more about him)

Still, renegade for life yo. Embrace the Darkness all the way.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:22 pm 
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For all that people are saying 'Iweko went into the deal looking for a loophole', no. Iweko went into the deal expecting treachery, confirmed treachery by Daigotsu, and countered said treachery. She wasn't looking to exterminate the Spider from the word go, but she did, rightly, not trust Daigotsu, confirmed that he wasn't to be trusted, and then found a way around his scheme, and then, when there was no more use for her disloyal vassals, dealt with them decisively.

If Daigotsu never pulls this out of character betrayal, NONE OF THIS HAPPENS, Iweko - if she attempts to remove the Spider - is firmly in the wrong, and we ACTUALLY have nuance and a reason to unleash Jigoku, because Iweko BROKE THE DEAL and Jigoku SHOULD be unleashed upon Rokugan, because the deal was broken.

Daigotsu, however, in this case, broke the deal first, so there's no nuance. This is just black and white villainy at it's simplest, lazy writing the likes of which we were supposed to NOT GET to set up Onyx.

*spits*

Instead we get this garbage.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:26 pm 
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Audax wrote:
Daigotsu Yoshiro wrote:
It's not perfect and a little underwhelming given the hype behind it, but it still works.


Not as neatly as you say. Because we don't just have humans in the story. The divine Iweko must be right when she says that Daigotsu attempted treachery. She doesn't lie, or not that we know of and she is heavenly insight. Not all the time, but she should have in this case.

So Daigotsu is a traitor and Kanpeki will keep being his ally. That's at least where the story leaves us. We know how the plots ends, but the removal as Champion isn't, at least not to me, the big betrayal that justifies a coup, let alone summoning Hell to Earth. Revolting would be human, if only to keep your power. But this makes Kanpeki clearly the bad guy. That's not what I expected after what I read and heard about how the betrayal would be. But maybe I was expecting too much when I thought Kanpeki unleashing Jigoku would be justified. After this fiction it is not.


Actually, why can't she lie? I imagine that Naseru lied quite a lot, so it's not like an Emperor cannot be a calculating individual. Also, just because she is "correct" doesn't mean she is right. That degree of nuance is necessary to give her depth. In fact, this story did quite a bit to make her come across as far more complex.

He is as justified as needs to be. He is the freaking son of Daigotsu and one of the most frightening people in the Empire. If he is pissed off at his treatment by Iweko and Seiken, he can be inclined to do whatever the hell he wants. If he simply has grown tired of waiting to take over the Empire, he would still feel justified in unleashing Jigoku. He can simply do it with no motive at all, though it is a bit of a stretch and makes him a less compelling character.

People wanted a realistic motive for Kanpeki to do what he does, and this is very realistic. If you were humiliated in front of your equals and superiors, how would you take it? We can imagine that everyone should bear their shame stoically, but honestly, humiliation can often to be the catalyst for violent behavior, so Kanpeki's actions are quite legitimate. If you wanted a more epic reason, well, then yes, the story fell short. But can I see Kanpeki's shame driving him to a series of terrible acts of revenge? Absolutely!


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:26 pm 
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Audax wrote:
The divine Iweko must be right when she says that Daigotsu attempted treachery. She doesn't lie, or not that we know of and she is heavenly insight.


Not quite--we know that Iweko considers Daigotsu's action a treachery. She's speaking from an Empress' POV. Of course she would. Daigotsu might defend his action as a precaution against betrayal that was ultimately justified.

Here's what Dave promised us:

Quote:
Kanpeki "genuinely believes" he's been betrayed...is this just a way of saying he's wrong, being all knee-jerk and hysterical, and going to end up being bad for the sake of being bad? The answer is, no, absolutely not. Kanpeki will really believe the Spider are being betrayed by the Empire. Now, will the Empire see it that way? Maybe not. The fact is that one event or happening can be seen different ways by different people, and NONE OF THEM ARE NECESSARILY WRONG. You see a man standing over a corpse covered with stab wounds, holding a dripping knife. Did he murder that person, or did he just happen on the scene and pick up the knife? If he was the killer, was it murder or self-defense? Any of these could be right and, without more information, all of them are--and they're all wrong, too. Yes, there's almost certainly an essential truth, but we may never learn it, and are left interpreting things as best we can, from our particular perspective. Rest assured that Kanpeki will believe IN GOOD FAITH that the Spider have been screwed over, and promises have been broken, and that the Empire no longer deserves his loyalty or that of his Clan...that the Empire are the ones dealing in bad faith and have richly earned what's coming to them. Now, does that mean he's objectively right? My answer to that is, does it matter? What matters is that the character behaves in a believable, consistent manner.


That's exactly what we got: a situation that can be interpreted differently by multiple people. The Story Team delivered. Now, you might think that Kanpeki clearly has no justification in rebelling, and that it's black and white. That's fine, so do Seiken and the Empress. But the very existence of others (myself included) who don't think that way indicates that this story works.

Even if half the audience thought it was black-and-white in favor of Seiken, and half were convinced it was black-and white in favor of Kanpeki, then even with everyone taking a black-and-white view on the subject, opposing interpretations abound and the Story has succeeded.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:30 pm 
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Except ONLY SOME OF THE SPIDER think Kanpeki was betrayed. EVERYONE ELSE (and even some of the Spider) are siding with Iweko. There's no 'half and half' here, it's only hardcore Spider homers who are backing Kanpeki here, everyone else is siding with Iweko. Literally NO ONE save for a small handful of people think Kanpeki was betrayed, especially given Daigotsu was cheating from the word GO.

In other words, it's the same 'dogpile on the bad guy' scenario we've seen TIME AND TIME AGAIN since this game started.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:36 pm 
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i've read the fiction a few more times and you know whats goddamn depressing about it? i LOVE the idea of shibatsu as head of the Susumu, and i even kinda like the idea of him leading the spider. if thats what walking in the light is, thats an interesting option.

but whatever good that is, it comes wrapped in just an awful fiction that makes our champion and founder both look bad, and sets us up for years of conflict with the rest of the fanbase. oh and it makes our future emperor look bad again, after a brief window of redeeming behavior.

putting aside my overt daigotsu fanboyism, this is just BAD, and once again bad writing damns the spider community.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:41 pm 
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
Except ONLY SOME OF THE SPIDER think Kanpeki was betrayed. EVERYONE ELSE (and even some of the Spider) are siding with Iweko. There's no 'half and half' here, it's only hardcore Spider homers.


Hey, leave me out of this! :| ;)


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:46 pm 
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
For all that people are saying 'Iweko went into the deal looking for a loophole', no. Iweko went into the deal expecting treachery, confirmed treachery by Daigotsu, and countered said treachery. She wasn't looking to exterminate the Spider from the word go, but she did, rightly, not trust Daigotsu, confirmed that he wasn't to be trusted, and then found a way around his scheme, and then, when there was no more use for her disloyal vassals, dealt with them decisively.

If Daigotsu never pulls this out of character betrayal, NONE OF THIS HAPPENS, Iweko - if she attempts to remove the Spider - is firmly in the wrong, and we ACTUALLY have nuance and a reason to unleash Jigoku, because Iweko BROKE THE DEAL and Jigoku SHOULD be unleashed upon Rokugan, because the deal was broken.

.


The Empress didn't break the deal, though. Seiken did, without any knowledge of Daigotsu's machinations. And when Kanpeki brought up Daigotsu's threat--which only would have caused damage if the Iweko betrayed him first, and which was there specifically to hold the pact in place and keep the Iweko at their word--the Empress shot him down and defended Seiken's betrayal.

Daigotsu's lie wasn't the malicious scheme of a conman trying to pull a fast one on the Empress. It was the precautionary measure of a shrewd leader to prevent betrayal from a person he did not trust. His secret meddling was defensive, not offensive. It was intended as a reaction.

He ultimately left the ball in the Iweko's court.

Quote:
Iweko went into the deal expecting treachery, confirmed treachery by Daigotsu, and countered said treachery.


So did Daigotsu. He went into the deal expecting treachery, confirmed treachery by Seiken, and took a step to counter said treachery.

Rightfully, neither side trusted the other. If Daigotsu behaved dishonestly, it was only because he didn't trust the Iweko, and as we have seen he was right not to trust them.


Last edited by Shimane on Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:46 pm 
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
Except ONLY SOME OF THE SPIDER think Kanpeki was betrayed. EVERYONE ELSE (and even some of the Spider) are siding with Iweko. There's no 'half and half' here, it's only hardcore Spider homers who are backing Kanpeki here, everyone else is siding with Iweko. Literally NO ONE save for a small handful of people think Kanpeki was betrayed, especially given Daigotsu was cheating from the word GO.

In other words, it's the same 'dogpile on the bad guy' scenario we've seen TIME AND TIME AGAIN since this game started.


Well, if the Spider go down a dark path, why wouldn't there be a dogpile on the Spider? That's the price of being the antagonist faction.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:50 pm 
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There were claims of questions that would be answered by the Story Team. Here is one.

How is any of this 'nuanced'. Daigotsu went into the deal with Iweko not willing to honor the deal he made with her. This put him completely in the wrong, and Iweko was aware of it from pretty much the moment the deal was sealed. She then took measures to counter it, called Daigotsu and Kanpeki's bluff, and pretty much won completely, and moreover, was right to do so, as Daigotsu was playing dirty pool.

Where exactly is the nuance in this, because that's pretty black and white good vs evil right there.

Question the second. Daigotsu was always pretty honorable about keeping his deals. Why the need to suddenly make him a backstabber here? While Daigotsu is and always will be a monster, this seems fairly out of character for him.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:08 pm 
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The story itself aside, it's disappointing that this story has generated absolutely no discussion on any of the other clan forums.

Is it just too early or do none of the other bases care about stories involving the Spider?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:15 pm 
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I think everyone's busy arguing on the main AEG board.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:39 pm 
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The bargain Iweko and Daigotsu struck stated "Withold the blight you call the Shadowlands taint."

The devil is still very much in the details. Daigotsu did not clearly state whether this withholding was a dormancy or a defacto vaccination form the taint. But of course, the interpretation being on Iweko, by interpreting the claused as a vaccine, she immediately assumed betrayal. In which case it was on her to either reject the bargain and mow the Spider down or use the Spider and play along for the longest Mexican stand-off ever. And we all know what happened.

Then again, if she really were interpreting the "withholding" as a simple dormancy, she would also need to assume that Daigotsu was still honoring his bargain... to the letter. And that only she was capable of breaking the deal.

Of course, the Divine One would simply not allow herself to believe that Daigotsu got one over on her.

Oh, this political fiasco is soooo delicious... like fresh baked cookies... made of rage.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:49 pm 
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Zarasu wrote:

Oh, this political fiasco is soooo delicious... like fresh baked cookies... made of rage.


I think that is where a lot of people are getting hung up. This is an amazing political moment where a previous deal falls through and each party attempts to leverage the others into following the path that they want. It is not a dramatic or heroic scene as many were likely anticipating, but it does illustrate how leverage fails and why grandstanding, particularly Iwekozan's, is very ill-advised.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:47 am 
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Assuming that Iweko is being truthful and correct about what happened . . .
Shimane wrote:
The Empress didn't break the deal, though. Seiken did

No, Daigotsu broke the deal. Right from the start. If he hadn't (and Kanpeki being spider champion is a condition, some people seem to be arguing that point) then it would've been Seiken who broke the deal. Luckily for Seiken, that's not how it went down.

Shimane wrote:
Kanpeki brought up Daigotsu's threat--which only would have caused damage if the Iweko betrayed him first

Irrelevant. Daigotsu broke the deal. The fact that noone was supposed to find out does not change that.

Shimane wrote:
So did Daigotsu. He went into the deal expecting treachery, confirmed treachery by Seiken, and took a step to counter said treachery.

Your seem to have the timeline a bit mixed up there. Daigotsu broke the deal and started doing his own treachery before Seiken was even born.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:27 am 
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Why is there any question? The deal said the effects of the taint would be withheld. And they were.

Code:
“The Master of Jigoku can withhold the blessings of his realm from mortal souls,” Susumu said. “Agree to his terms, and my lord Daigotsu shall permit no human within the service of the Empress to suffer the blight you call the Shadowlands Taint unless they willingly accept his blessings.”

“There are scarcely enough Spider remaining to comprise a Minor Clan, much less prove worthy of the title of a Great Clan.”

Susumu scoffed. “Was such true of the Mantis when they ascended? Hardly.”

There was a moment of silence from the Empress and her Voice. “The people of Rokugan would be spared the Taint forever, then.”

“So long as our agreement stands,” Susumu confirmed.

Another silence followed. “For the sake of her people, and for an end to war, the Empress agrees to your terms. Exactly your terms, and nothing more.” Satsu seemed so weary that he might collapse. “Her interpretation thereof is above question, however.”


Sure, the Empress may say her interpretation is different, but Daigotsu withheld the blessings. Worded as no one will 'suffer the blight'. In no way shape or form did anything Daigotsu do betray this. Sure, this is a story open to multiple interpretations I guess, but those who say Daigotsu had already broken the deal and was lying all along are grasping at straws. This will leads to months of back and forth on the forums I am sure, but the core reality is Daigotsu was good on his word.

I do question how much authority an Emperor has with regards to clan structure. I thought naming of families, adding families, restructuring, naming champions, etc... i thought those were all Clan powers, not Imperial powers. Is there any other reference to an Emperor restructuring a clans ranking like this? That just felt forced and odd.

My only hope, is that the smug reaction of the Empress, that she has been protecting her subjects all along, was wrong. That she THOUGHT she had a way, but by Daigotsu suppressing the taint, she had no way to know it wasn't effective, and people are now tainted in droves. That would make more sense for the upcoming story. I just really want her to have been wrong, and it become public knowledge that she was wrong, that she could not outsmart Daigotsu, and could not protect her people, and neither can her son. I am real sick of boring black and white evil, and evil always being the one to balk first, always being the one who lied. I am sick of the 'good' side always having a magic bullet like this to foil everything. No real consequences.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:31 am 
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The posts of Clan Champion and family daimyo are and always have been subject to Imperial approval. No-one actually holds the post until they have gone to the Emperor and asked to be confirmed in that role. Usually it's a formality, but Emperors do occasionally meddle in these things if they feel like it or they see a benefit in doing so, and there's nothing you can really do about it openly.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:51 am 
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Let's say Daigotsu did not betray the deal, because there is no OOC indication that he did, not in the RPG at least. Let's say Iweko lies, because she either thinks her son can take the fallout or that Kanpeki wouldn't react with unleashing Jigoku to his demotion. After all, it's not about disbanding the Spider and hunt every tainted member down, it's a demotion and a public humiliation. A humiliation worthy of a blood feud, but it's only a demotion.

If Iweko pulled the betrayal of Daigotsu out of her arse and Kanpeki is justified to retaliate, why doesn't it feel so? Is it that my expectations were different? Is it because the fiction doesn't say that Iweko breaks the deal first? I don't know. Unless future fictions state that Iweko broke the deal first, this could be a pivotal, very important fiction for the Spider that is botch. Another one, if you count Goddesses IV as a botch, too.

But Shawn Carman is here, and other Story Team members, and they can help. Did Daigotsu break the deal first? Or did Iweko break the deal first?

I love many things about the ficton, the demotion, Shibatsu as Spider Champion, the political stand-off. But if Daigotsu broke the deal first, Seiken is morally right to act as he did and Kanpeki is wrong. This would sully the whole Obsidian Empire to me, and this fiction put a damper on my enthusiasm for Onyx Edition (and its RPG material) and I want my enthusiasm back. The answer to this above question might help.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:59 am 
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Daidoji Tacticus wrote:
The posts of Clan Champion and family daimyo are and always have been subject to Imperial approval. No-one actually holds the post until they have gone to the Emperor and asked to be confirmed in that role. Usually it's a formality, but Emperors do occasionally meddle in these things if they feel like it or they see a benefit in doing so, and there's nothing you can really do about it openly.


That's true, but if the Clan Championship is bound to a Faustian pact with the Master of Jigoku, you better are not the first to break that pact. That all said, unleashing Jigoku as reaction to a demotion and a humiliation by a future Emperor (he is not yet Emperor when he humiliates Kanpeki) is hardly justified based on this one fiction. If Kanpeki were to fight for the survival of his subjects and clan, yes. But this looks too weak to attempt a coup. On the other hand, this is Rokugan where such a humiliation can be cause for a blood feud. And if Kanpeki doesn't swear fealty to Seiken, which he doesn't seem to be doing after storming out, Seiken isn't sacrosanct, he is just an enemy. We'll see how it continues. Nonetheless, the fiction leaves me in the Impression that Kanpeki is wrong here, he has reason for storming off, but his path is not (yet) justified. We'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:04 am 
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Audax wrote:
Let's say Daigotsu did not betray the deal, because there is no OOC indication that he did, not in the RPG at least. Let's say Iweko lies, because she either thinks her son can take the fallout or that Kanpeki wouldn't react with unleashing Jigoku to his demotion. After all, it's not about disbanding the Spider and hunt every tainted member down, it's a demotion and a public humiliation. A humiliation worthy of a blood feud, but it's only a demotion.

If Iweko pulled the betrayal of Daigotsu out of her arse and Kanpeki is justified to retaliate, why doesn't it feel so? Is it that my expectations were different? Is it because the fiction doesn't say that Iweko breaks the deal first? I don't know. Unless future fictions state that Iweko broke the deal first, this could be a pivotal, very important fiction for the Spider that is botch. Another one, if you count Goddesses IV as a botch, too.

But Shawn Carman is here, and other Story Team members, and they can help. Did Daigotsu break the deal first? Or did Iweko break the deal first?

I love many things about the ficton, the demotion, Shibatsu as Spider Champion, the political stand-off. But if Daigotsu broke the deal first, Seiken is morally right to act as he did and Kanpeki is wrong. This would sully the whole Obsidian Empire to me, and this fiction put a damper on my enthusiasm for Onyx Edition (and its RPG material) and I want my enthusiasm back. The answer to this above question might help.


"Who broke the deal first" is a matter of interpretation, surely? As it's supposed to be. Daigotsu interpreted the wording of the deal one way and acted on that basis, either to set up a contingency against Iweko repudiating it or to set up a treacherous first strike down the line (take your pick). Iweko interpreted the deal another way, blocked Daigotsu's plans and regarded him as in violation of the deal because he wasn't acting in accordance with her interpretation of it.

No-one promised that the Spider would be unambiguously right. Only that they would have grounds for believing themselves right, which they do. There are also grounds to consider them wrong. No-one promised there wouldn't be.

Audax wrote:
Daidoji Tacticus wrote:
The posts of Clan Champion and family daimyo are and always have been subject to Imperial approval. No-one actually holds the post until they have gone to the Emperor and asked to be confirmed in that role. Usually it's a formality, but Emperors do occasionally meddle in these things if they feel like it or they see a benefit in doing so, and there's nothing you can really do about it openly.


That's true, but if the Clan Championship is bound to a Faustian pact with the Master of Jigoku, you better are not the first to break that pact. That all said, unleashing Jigoku as reaction to a demotion and a humiliation by a future Emperor (he is not yet Emperor when he humiliates Kanpeki) is hardly justified based on this one fiction. If Kanpeki were to fight for the survival of his subjects and clan, yes. But this looks too weak to attempt a coup. On the other hand, this is Rokugan where such a humiliation can be cause for a blood feud. And if Kanpeki doesn't swear fealty to Seiken, which he doesn't seem to be doing after storming out, Seiken isn't sacrosanct, he is just an enemy. We'll see how it continues. Nonetheless, the fiction leaves me in the Impression that Kanpeki is wrong here, he has reason for storming off, but his path is not (yet) justified. We'll see.


You asked about the Emperor's authority, and the Emperor does indeed have the legal authority to do this. He normally doesn't, because the Emperor's de facto authority is vastly less than his de jure absolute power, and throwing around weight that people only pretend that you possess can lead to severe consequences even when you're not dealing with someone who has Jigoku on tap.

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As for the rest, I am of the opinion that the Otomo must be destroyed.

Player of Asahina Umeko at Winter Court IV


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