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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:02 pm 
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Soshi Narumo wrote:
Thank you! :D
I have been asking for a proof from the beginning.

Edit: Damn, but that doesn't prove it either. As the head of the State she can change thing, like, for example, who does what. I mean, she just appointed his son as head of a family in a Clan. She can certainly put someone in a charge that wasn't actually part of the Celestial order at all.
I mean the Toturi dynasty named Fortune a heimin, the scandal.

Quote:
Boom, she made a legal error that was a misjudgement of her authority at best, and an open attempt to subvert the only man with authority in that position wrongly and illegally at worse.


She defines the legally of any action. That's the whole point in being emperor (or a deluded dictator :roll: ). If she appoint someone else to the position then its legal. If that made a certain fellow fell bad about himself, well, too bad but that's not proof that she made a mistake. Just that someone didn't get the position he felt entitled to

Dude, I had actually got happy. Don't play with my scorpion feelings :(.


That's not how being empress works. When a previous, AND INFALLIBLE emperor (say Totori) defines the Shogun as a legit role, that means its law. She cant change the position establish by Toturi, no matter how much juju she actually has.

ITS LITERALLY AN OOC GM BOOK SAYING SHE WAS WRONG AND TAIGO WAS RIGHT! You cant say "your wrong" to the freaking outside material written by the company. She broke Toturi III's acceptance of the role, and contradicted her own acceptance of these rules when Appointing Taigo by ignoring his office. If she openly changed the rules that's one thing, but she didn't, she broke divine, and historical, precedence. Infallibility in emperors, in Rokugan, does not allow that.

Nope, not with the Shogun. She actually CANT go changing laws as that leads to her contradicting herself, by undermining the role of the shogun or by changing the proclamations of previous emperors. He, as shogun, is allowed to challenge ANY change to his authority BY HIS RULES. That makes the argument she can hand wave it a HUGE no no in Rokugan and no empress is above that.

Sorry but no dice there.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:04 pm 
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One of the MAJOR points about emperors is that the precedent of previous emperors stick, because they were "Infallible" when they made their rulings as well, no changing them.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:23 pm 
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Shawn Carman wrote:
MirumotoDaisuke wrote:
To (mis)appropriate a quote - she IS the Law. She can do WHATEVER THE F SHE WANTS.


I demand a pic of Iweko with a Judge Dredd helmet shopped on.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:44 pm 
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Cool! :D
Then she was mistaken. Thank you :)


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:38 pm 
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Yes. Yessss. I am pleased.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:36 pm 
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Dahawi wrote:
Hello guys.

Shawn, I would be interested to hear your personal views on this; Based on this fiction alone do you feel any sympathy for Kanpeki and the Spider? Would you support them? I agree that everyone will interpret this in a different way and wonder what you feel as a player, and not as a member of the story team.

For me, I would have liked a bit more interaction with the other Clan Champions before the scene ended to get the other player bases involved, and a bit more recrimination on Seiken.

"So I am to be replaced?" said Kanpeki "Has my leadership of the Spider been incompetent? Has my service and loyalty to the throne been inadequate? The Empress ordered us to conquer the colonies, and we obeyed willingly and at great cost to our clan. The colonies were tamed by the blood of the Spider, had you simply hoped my line would die in those jungles making a stronger Empire for you in which there was no place us?"

The fire of betrayal burns in Kanpeki's eyes as he turns to Mirumoto Shikei.

"The Dragon were the stewards of the Spider in our transition to Great Clan. Their duty was to guide the Spider and ensure we earned our place in the Emerald Empire, perhaps it is on your assessment that Iweko Seiken has come to this decision. Tell me, Did I fail? Has the clan I have built under your guidance been deemed unworthy? If so then your failure must be equal to mine. Will Iweko Miaka be made the new daimyo of Mirumoto? This is an insult to the Dragon as much as the Spider. I invite you to remember that it was also your duty to protect the Spider from those who would seek to destroy them simply for existing, from those who would attack us without provocation. Is this attack on the Daigotsu justified, or are we being punished simply for the name we bare? You are our allies and our guardians, will you allow this?"

"Please my Lord" returning his gaze to Seiken "tell me why I alone will not be allowed to serve you as I have served your mother?"


Unfortunately I don't have time to write more as I am at work, but a bit of interaction with other champions and Shibatsu to get some other perspectives and get more of the fan base involved would have given this more weight and allowed others to question where they stand. I appreciate no-one really questions the emperor openly so maybe the other champions would have remained quiet. Also, the whole Diagotsu-Iweko debate is muddying the water of this Seiken-Kanpeki debate, they are two completely separate things that have now been merged and unfairly tip the scales.
one of the most beautiful things I have read. It is more than a mere shame that this is not how things were presented. This is the nuance I and others were looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:27 pm 
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One thing I noticed in reading these, and forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that lying was not dishonourable, and a lie told with sincerity was just as honourable as the truth. Basically, if you don't get caught or sound sincere, you are not acting dishonourably.

Things I took from the story:

1. I like the Idea of Iweko Shibatsu being Susumu Shibatsu and taking over the Susumu. It's a real kick in the teeth for Susumu Kuroko though, because she has worked very hard to build the Family and has done nothing to receive such a demotion.

2. There is enough there to say that Kanpeki is justified and there is certainly enough there to say that Iweko is justified, it's a matter of perspective. Unfortunately, it means that no one has any real reason to change the status quo and question the Iweko dynasty, so it will most likely be a 8vs1 because it does not challenge any of the other player base's view point.

3. It would have been nice to see more interaction with the Dragon Clan since it implies that they have failed badly at their task set by Iweko.

Can't wait to see the next part though, maybe it'll shed more light onto things.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:53 pm 
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gaijindog wrote:
Dahawi wrote:
"So I am to be replaced?" said Kanpeki "Has my leadership of the Spider been incompetent? Has my service and loyalty to the throne been inadequate? The Empress ordered us to conquer the colonies, and we obeyed willingly and at great cost to our clan. The colonies were tamed by the blood of the Spider, had you simply hoped my line would die in those jungles making a stronger Empire for you in which there was no place us?"

The fire of betrayal burns in Kanpeki's eyes as he turns to Mirumoto Shikei.

"The Dragon were the stewards of the Spider in our transition to Great Clan. Their duty was to guide the Spider and ensure we earned our place in the Emerald Empire, perhaps it is on your assessment that Iweko Seiken has come to this decision. Tell me, Did I fail? Has the clan I have built under your guidance been deemed unworthy? If so then your failure must be equal to mine. Will Iweko Miaka be made the new daimyo of Mirumoto? This is an insult to the Dragon as much as the Spider. I invite you to remember that it was also your duty to protect the Spider from those who would seek to destroy them simply for existing, from those who would attack us without provocation. Is this attack on the Daigotsu justified, or are we being punished simply for the name we bare? You are our allies and our guardians, will you allow this?"

"Please my Lord" returning his gaze to Seiken "tell me why I alone will not be allowed to serve you as I have served your mother?"

one of the most beautiful things I have read. It is more than a mere shame that this is not how things were presented. This is the nuance I and others were looking for.

You see "nuance," I see someone trying to make my Clan's story once again being made all about being an adjunct to the Spider. Because I haven't had enough of that for the last 3.5 years.

P.S. We will totally take Miaka. Sorry, Scorpion! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:02 pm 
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I hope when Thunderous Acclaim part 2 comes out, we'll see Kanpeki walking out the door but Naleesh and Shikei come following after him to console him somewhat, offer some kind words, maybe even have some sake with him. At least that way, we might see that not everyone is going to come out and stomp all over the Spider.

(Well... maybe except that one Dragon that plans to burn down the City of the Lost. I like to imagine it as her visiting the place and finds actual spiders there and going 'nope nope nope' and burning it just for that. XD )

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:06 am 
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Ji-Han wrote:
I hope when Thunderous Acclaim part 2 comes out, we'll see Kanpeki walking out the door but Naleesh and Shikei come following after him to console him somewhat, offer some kind words, maybe even have some sake with him. At least that way, we might see that not everyone is going to come out and stomp all over the Spider.

(Well... maybe except that one Dragon that plans to burn down the City of the Lost. I like to imagine it as her visiting the place and finds actual spiders there and going 'nope nope nope' and burning it just for that. XD )


What he said. There's still 2 more weeks of voting and 2 more weeks of fiction. We shall see.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:57 am 
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Dahawi wrote:
"So I am to be replaced?" said Kanpeki "Has my leadership of the Spider been incompetent? Has my service and loyalty to the throne been inadequate? The Empress ordered us to conquer the colonies, and we obeyed willingly and at great cost to our clan. The colonies were tamed by the blood of the Spider, had you simply hoped my line would die in those jungles making a stronger Empire for you in which there was no place us?"

The fire of betrayal burns in Kanpeki's eyes as he turns to Mirumoto Shikei.

"The Dragon were the stewards of the Spider in our transition to Great Clan. Their duty was to guide the Spider and ensure we earned our place in the Emerald Empire, perhaps it is on your assessment that Iweko Seiken has come to this decision. Tell me, Did I fail? Has the clan I have built under your guidance been deemed unworthy? If so then your failure must be equal to mine. Will Iweko Miaka be made the new daimyo of Mirumoto? This is an insult to the Dragon as much as the Spider. I invite you to remember that it was also your duty to protect the Spider from those who would seek to destroy them simply for existing, from those who would attack us without provocation. Is this attack on the Daigotsu justified, or are we being punished simply for the name we bare? You are our allies and our guardians, will you allow this?"

"Please my Lord" returning his gaze to Seiken "tell me why I alone will not be allowed to serve you as I have served your mother?"


^
Is worth quoting.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:58 am 
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And going along with this, this is how he rewards the service of line of Susumu. Displacing the daughter of a man who gave his life for the Iweko Dynasty for a member of the Imperial line so that the Emperor can try to control a great clan?

I doubt that Shibatsu will survive Susumu Kuroko, innocent though he is.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:38 am 
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gaijindog wrote:
Dahawi wrote:
Hello guys.

Shawn, I would be interested to hear your personal views on this; Based on this fiction alone do you feel any sympathy for Kanpeki and the Spider? Would you support them? I agree that everyone will interpret this in a different way and wonder what you feel as a player, and not as a member of the story team.

For me, I would have liked a bit more interaction with the other Clan Champions before the scene ended to get the other player bases involved, and a bit more recrimination on Seiken.

"So I am to be replaced?" said Kanpeki "Has my leadership of the Spider been incompetent? Has my service and loyalty to the throne been inadequate? The Empress ordered us to conquer the colonies, and we obeyed willingly and at great cost to our clan. The colonies were tamed by the blood of the Spider, had you simply hoped my line would die in those jungles making a stronger Empire for you in which there was no place us?"

The fire of betrayal burns in Kanpeki's eyes as he turns to Mirumoto Shikei.

"The Dragon were the stewards of the Spider in our transition to Great Clan. Their duty was to guide the Spider and ensure we earned our place in the Emerald Empire, perhaps it is on your assessment that Iweko Seiken has come to this decision. Tell me, Did I fail? Has the clan I have built under your guidance been deemed unworthy? If so then your failure must be equal to mine. Will Iweko Miaka be made the new daimyo of Mirumoto? This is an insult to the Dragon as much as the Spider. I invite you to remember that it was also your duty to protect the Spider from those who would seek to destroy them simply for existing, from those who would attack us without provocation. Is this attack on the Daigotsu justified, or are we being punished simply for the name we bare? You are our allies and our guardians, will you allow this?"

"Please my Lord" returning his gaze to Seiken "tell me why I alone will not be allowed to serve you as I have served your mother?"


Unfortunately I don't have time to write more as I am at work, but a bit of interaction with other champions and Shibatsu to get some other perspectives and get more of the fan base involved would have given this more weight and allowed others to question where they stand. I appreciate no-one really questions the emperor openly so maybe the other champions would have remained quiet. Also, the whole Diagotsu-Iweko debate is muddying the water of this Seiken-Kanpeki debate, they are two completely separate things that have now been merged and unfairly tip the scales.
one of the most beautiful things I have read. It is more than a mere shame that this is not how things were presented. This is the nuance I and others were looking for.


^ This

The actual story pales in comparison to what this person just wrote on their lunch break.

Granted there may be more parts, but, a story as important as this one should have been given a bit more attention.

If you want to breeze over the whole amnesty thing, that's fine.........but there has been more relevant discussion on these forums about what could/should have been, than actual content in the story. I'm not one to get two wrapped up into the story. I only check them from time to time, but,, the ones that provide the backbone of why I'm fighting for Spider/Shadowlands are important to me, so I check in on those. The story of Fu Leng grabbed me right from the start. Going back and re-reading the stories on Daigotsu (because I was out of the game at the time) were awesome. The bargain at the end of CE between Iweko and Daigotsu were pretty cool............but this was just lacking. It kind of took the wind out of my sails. Hopefully the remaining stories will be an improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:06 am 
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So I re-read it a couple more times, and then once more.

I think the problem here is Kozan's explanation is just lacking any real substance. It's kind like he's saying "But they are Spider, yadda yadda yadda, couldn't fool the empress this time now you pay."

Kanpeki should have had more interaction. His warning aka "very loosely veiled threat" was skirting the lines a bit, but Kanpeki's speaking parts are ok..........it's Kozan's summary that is the weak link. It almost appears as if he's not speaking for the empress as he's providing the recap of the bargain and he's moving along his own agenda.........or maybe he's under the influence of Seiken. Which would seem accurate for someone like Seiken who isn't as well versed in the courts but likes to throw his power around.

I don't think Daigotsu comes off poorly in this at all, I just think the story fell a little flat. I expected more of a dramatic courtroom scene unfolding and instead it kind of turned into this:

Seiken: My brother is taking over the Spider
Kanpeki: You sure you want to do that, cuz that might seriously f things up on a cosmic good vs evil scale....remember the deal?
Kozan: Your daddy couldn't fool us, that deal was never legit, you're not worthy
Seiken: Yeah, what he said, you're lucky we're in court or I'd have someone else beat you up, now beat it
Kanpeki: Whatevs. C ya, wouldn't want to be ya!


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:51 am 
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It makes sense that if Seiken wants to remove the son of Daigotsu as Champion he would also remove the daughter of Sususmu from power, too. If she weren't married, he might have married her to Shibatsu and made her Lord Spider.

Despite what I dislike about the exchange between Kanpeki and Kozan, I think the biggest weakness of the fiction is that we know that Kanpeki will indeed summon Jigoku onto Rokugan. If the end of the plot were open, I guess my assessment would be different. I would expect a talk between Kanpeki and Shibatsu, the two are friends after all, are they not?

And it's not the first time a powerless Champion rules the clan only nominally. Look at the Phoenix or at the Mirumoto when Togashi was still in Rokugan. To nuke Rokugan with Jigoku bombs is in no way the logical, or rather only logical outcome of Thunderous Acclaim. But we know that much was already decided that the Story Team must work with. Unless they declare the Obsidian Empire a dream or tainted Kanpeki a dream, like Fallen Nitoshi was. Yeah, right ...

Still, it will be interesting to see a weak but legitimate Spider Clan at Seiken's side and a large, powerful Spider Clan of Kanpeki-loyal renegades. Or would the Shibatsu-loyal Spider be the renegades? Ah, politics, how I like them in my fantasy stories.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:28 pm 
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Audax wrote:
Still, it will be interesting to see a weak but legitimate Spider Clan at Seiken's side and a large, powerful Spider Clan of Kanpeki-loyal renegades. Or would the Shibatsu-loyal Spider be the renegades? Ah, politics, how I like them in my fantasy stories.


This actually feels like this will happen regardless of which choice we make (just due to fact that there will be a nice percentage of WitL/Embrace votes), and I'm looking forward to how that would be reflected in CCG and RPG.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:39 am 
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Kanpeki drew himself up and bowed. “You will do as you must, Emperor,” he said approaching Seiken. “And I will do the same... Right now !” In an non human quickness he snap Seiken as a twig and vanish in the sadows helped by the goju's magics, leaving the champions and the blessed mother crying before the mutilated corpse of her son.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:56 am 
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Daigotsu Piquet wrote:
Kanpeki drew himself up and bowed. “You will do as you must, Emperor,” he said approaching Seiken. “And I will do the same... Right now !” In an non human quickness he snap Seiken as a twig and vanish in the sadows helped by the goju's magics, leaving the champions and the blessed mother crying before the mutilated corpse of her son.


Literally the only way the story could have gone worse. Political intrigue, being the dark reflection of Rokugan, just being the villains.. those are good reasons to support Kanpeki. Him being a Mary-sue that can one-shot the Emperor in a room full of champions is not.

Come on, we like to TRY and have some class here.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:15 pm 
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I know this is a bit of an aside, but I *really* like the story potential opened up by Shibatsu being placed in charge of the Susumu. It's almost certain that Seiken's first act post ascension will be to dissolve the imperial bureaucracy. There are valid arguments for this action, but facts are that the bureaucracy played a role in proper government of the realm. Without it, Seiken will be effectively ruling by decree. That's all fine and dandy for resolving clan disputes by edict, but taxation levels, ruling of rural, clanless lands, or just managing the minutiae of running the imperial city guard is too much for one man, no matter how divinely inspired. And Seiken wants to make big changes, not address inflation on the price of rice.

He'd much rather leave such a tedious task to his brother.

Shibatsu knows the ways of the court, he was briefly the governor of the Second City, and hey, he's got all these Susumu (and maybe the Gyushi?) at his command.
So suddenly the Susumu are effectively *the* imperial bureaucracy. That puts them. In a position of incredible, subtle political power. And they devoted their lives to earning a place for the Spider in polite society.

I just hope this means that there's room for a more interesting outcome than "Kanpeki came back, this time with oni."

(You can now resume arguing about who betrayed who first)

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:27 pm 
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Daigotsu Hideki wrote:
Come on, we like to TRY and have some class here.


I know i know... I was just trying to show the anger burning in Big K's head :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:18 pm 
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Daigotsu Piquet wrote:
Kanpeki drew himself up and bowed. “You will do as you must, Emperor,” he said approaching Seiken. “And I will do the same... Right now !” In an non human quickness he snap Seiken as a twig and vanish in the sadows helped by the goju's magics, leaving the champions and the blessed mother crying before the mutilated corpse of her son.



I lol'd

I'd rather see Kanpeki go bats$@! crazy in court than have some "Mean Girls" dialogue from Kozen and Seiken.

Honestly, I'm fine with everything Kanpeki in this story, it's the parts in between that kind of spoil it. Luckily this is only part one and it can still be salvaged.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:12 pm 
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I think it's interesting that people are saying Daigotsu broke the deal, or even Iweko. I don't see that from either of them. As far as I can tell, they both held to their word (while preparing countermeasures for if the other party did not). But Seiken ousting Kanpeki as lord does seem to be a violation of the agreement. He's the one that's really causing this.


And as for Kanpeki reacting by breaking open the seals to Jigoku, I'm reminded of Kill Bill.

Quote:
Bill: When you didn't come back, I naturally assumed that Lisa Wong or somebody else had killed you. Oh, and for the record, letting someone think that someone they love is dead when they're not is quite cruel. I mourned you for three months. And in the third month of mourning you, I tracked you down. Now, I wasn't trying to track you down. I was trying to track down the fucking assholes who I thought killed you. So, I find you. And what do I find? Not only are you not dead, you're getting married, to some fucking jerk, and you're pregnant. I... overreacted.

[long pause]

The Bride: You overreacted?

Is that your explanation?

Bill: I didn't say I was gonna explain myself. I said I was gonna tell you the truth. But if that's too cryptic, let's get literal. I'm a killer. I'm a murdering bastard. You know that. And there are consequences...to breaking the heart of a murdering bastard. You experienced some of them. Was my reaction really that surprising?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:26 am 
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Point is, Iweko stated Daigotsu broke the deal. That's all the other 8 playerbases need.

Doesn't matter who actually did or didn't break the deal, the way it was presented pretty much made it open and shut for every non-Spider out there.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:06 am 
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Dances with Oni
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
Point is, Iweko stated Daigotsu broke the deal. That's all the other 8 playerbases need.

Doesn't matter who actually did or didn't break the deal, the way it was presented pretty much made it open and shut for every non-Spider out there.

If that's all they need, then there's no way this was going to go otherwise, so why get so worked up about it?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:11 am 
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Well, it's a meta-decision, so player's don't vote on how a character decides, but what they want as players. If enough were cool with allying with the Spider or were convinced it's a good story, what Iweko said or didn't say wouldn't matter.

But the reality is that many players don't want to ally with the story, so how the fiction went, didn't help to create interest in allying with the Spider. That's principally right, because twisting players' arms to make them ally with the Spider would be too much, too. The question just is: How exciting can a story be if 8 pile on one, and how do you create compelling stories for the isolated clan? And how do you keep writing compelling stories for the isolated clan? "The Spider sit in the Shadowlands (or the Dragon atop their mountains, the Mantis on their islands, the Phoenix in their libraries etc.) and elsewhere there are the awesome plots", that just won't cut it.

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