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 Post subject: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:41 pm 
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http://imperialassembly.com/news.php?news=113

Commuting and on the phone, so I'm less verbose than I want to.

I love the political move of Seiken to make his brother the Susumu daimyo and the Spider Champion. That's the kind of intrigue that I want to see more of.

It's also reasonable that Kanpeki tries to prevent it. That the Empress says Daigotsu had broken his word is not only uncharacteristic for her, but also for Daigorsu. If there is one thing he did time and time again (like Lobo of DC) is to always keep his word.

I'm not convinced of Daigotsu's alleged treachery, but a divine Empress who lies is equally irritating.

Anyway, if this is the nuanced treachery that leads to the Obsidian Empire, I'm really disappointed. Kanpeki looks like throwing a tantrum and actually disobey his Emperor. This is much less nuanced than I had hoped for. Meh.

But Shibatsu becoming a Susumu and the recognised Clan Champion is great, a awesome twist to this story prize. Now, who will he marry?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:09 pm 
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This... [self censored]
Well, i can't find the right words to describe my.... "feelings" about this (without better word) story
So i will not even try


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:21 pm 
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The betrayal was pretty predictable, though I liked that Kozen was so smug when he made the announcement. I also liked that the both parties were ready to break the "promise" at a moment's notice, so in the end, they both recognized it as a mistake.

What's funny is that the moment completely undercuts Seiken as a competent Emperor.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:29 pm 
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Ok, so Seiken broke the promise formally, Kanpeki is not the champion of the Spider so there we go... Deal done.

Everything that happens is on his head.

As this is only part one of three I think calling it Kanpeki having a temper tantrum is a little early as there are still two more part.

But now my questions... Because I have a few.

1. Are we saying that Daigotsu, a relatively honest and noble villain, lied and that half the empire is tainted without ever knowing?

2. The empress knew about this, but can magically make taint not work because honor when that has never been the case before?

3. Did amnesty win the kotei votes? I haven't been checking up on that.

The betrayal was simply that, a betrayal. But the rest kind of confused me.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:31 pm 
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Yeah, the important details here are escaping me.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:50 pm 
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Seiken comes off as petty and vindictive; I don't think that bodes well for him as an Emperor.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:53 pm 
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What utter shite.

Daigotsu never kept the deal, apparently, so Seiken's completely in the right to do what he's doing, which means Kanpeki comes off as a petulant child in his short-sighted power grab.


Really, guys, that's a great way to make him a 'subtle' and 'nuanced' villain like we were promised........except it's the exact opposite.

The Spider have no leg to stand on and no legitimate reason to do what they're doing. ANY chance (not that there was one) of having another Clan back them for actual, REAL wrongs is done.


Fuck this shit.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:54 pm 
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i will repost my thoughts from the AEG forum, with a single additional comment at the end:

thus endeth the spider experiment, with very nearly as much grace as it was begun. it had its good times and its bad. rather more of the bad than the good, but whatever.

the iweko demonstrate themselves to be just as inconsistently written and arbitrary as we all feared, which i'm sure will be a GREAT comfort to those of us, namely the spider and mantis, who now have to depend upon the creative largess of their writers for their fate.

i am disappoint.

edit: i had been looking forward to seeing how onyx rolled out, but this is definitively NOT a good start. maybe its the bad end to a bad run, and was therefor as bad as it needed to be, but i can't say it puts me in a good mood for whats coming or gives me high hopes that my clan will be treated better in the future. we're going to be hated by the community in ALL NEW AND FUN WAYS because of this, and then we'll WIN and we'll be on the throne and that WONT AT ALL throw gas on the fire. Then we lose, and have to rebuild again.

this is bullshit, and i hate AEG for making me love this game, world, and community enough that i will put up with this kind of crap for love of said community at least if nothing else.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:55 pm 
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I want to hold off judgment until the whole story comes out, as we might get some back fill on the story to make it more palatable.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:00 pm 
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I don't really know how they can make it more palatable. Kanpeki's power grab was ALWAYS going to hinge on WHY the Spider felt the deal was being broken......and it's because the Iweko called Daigotsu's bluff of his trump card, which is revealed he was never honoring the bargain in the first place.

So they had no right or reason to honor the bargain with Daigotsu in the first place, as he wasn't keeping it on his end at all.

So the Spider have no legitimate reason to pull their stunt, they're just being typical villains, not honoring bargains (which is NOT in character for Daigotsu, he honored his deals), and pulling some evil rabbit out of their hat when they're thwarted. Typical black and white Saturday Morning Cartoon stuff, and very much not the 'subtle' and 'nuanced' stuff we were promised.........bleaaaaaah.

I'm so beyond disappointed in this.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:14 pm 
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Meh.

Not as bad as it could have been, but nowhere as good as it should have been as one of the defining moment of Onyx. In fact, the Susumu/Daigotsu switch would have been an incredible thing for the SPider Clan. It would give us legitimacy and shut all our detractors...while we continue to plot to take over the empire. One step at a time, Kanpeki. The emperor was giving you the next step of your generations-long plan and you spoiled it because?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:16 pm 
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Because nuance and subtlety to the Story Team is apparently 'you've figured out my schemes and thwarted them for the last time GADGET!'.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:20 pm 
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Personally, I loved it. This is the betrayal I was anticipating.

TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:

1. Are we saying that Daigotsu, a relatively honest and noble villain, lied and that half the empire is tainted without ever knowing?



Yes, but it was a lie of precaution. Daigotsu did in fact "turn off" the Taint's effects in any case, meaning that the Taint wasn't ever actually corrupting people. It was just dormant. And Daigotsu would be content to keep it that way unless the Iweko broke their deal. He never trusted in the goodwill of the Empire toward his clan, so he prepared a response to the Iweko's betrayal.

So if the Empress hadn't prevented the spread of the dormant Taint (how did she do that, btw? And why did she never do that before?), the Taint still would have laid quiet until Seiken betrayed Kanpeki. Seiken's betrayal, not Daigotsu's, would have brought the Taint back.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:34 pm 
I guess plus side is if Walk does get chosen, there's at least a legitimate reason to keep part of the Spider around. Who's got the stones to call for the head of the Emperor's brother?


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:42 pm 
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Really, people? Someone called it weeks ago that Seken's betrayal would be to replace Kanpeki with Shibatsu as clan champion, and people were like, "Whoah, that's a cool idea! It would make perfect sense!" But now that happens, and all we can do is kick up a shitstorm.

I say this was a LEGITIMATE betrayal. The Iweko literally just hijacked the Spider and made Daigotsu's bloodline subordinate to a minor family. They've cut Kanpeki down from his birthright--which his father died to secure--and slandered Daigotsu.

Daigotsu was justified in preparing for the Iweko's betrayal, because he was right, wasn't he?

And Daigotsu never betrayed Iweko. He did lie, but it was a lie that would have had no effect unless the Iweko betrayed him first. Which they did. It was only then that Kanpeki declared Daigotsu's trump card.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:47 pm 
Gennosuke wrote:
And Daigotsu never betrayed Iweko. He did lie, but it was a lie that would have had no effect unless the Iweko betrayed him first. Which they did. It was only then that Kanpeki declared Daigotsu's trump card.


He actually did betray her. The deal was based on Immunity to accidental taint. Not on whether it had any ill effects or not.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:48 pm 
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I will be happy to answer any questions you might have.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Gennosuke wrote:
Really, people? Someone called it weeks ago that Seken's betrayal would be to replace Kanpeki with Shibatsu as clan champion, and people were like, "Whoah, that's a cool idea! It would make perfect sense!" But now that happens, and all we can do is kick up a shitstorm.

I say this was a LEGITIMATE betrayal. The Iweko literally just hijacked the Spider and made Daigotsu's bloodline subordinate to a minor family. They've cut Kanpeki down from his birthright--which his father died to secure--and slandered Daigotsu.

Daigotsu was justified in preparing for the Iweko's betrayal, because he was right, wasn't he?

And Daigotsu never betrayed Iweko. He did lie, but it was a lie that would have had no effect unless the Iweko betrayed him first. Which they did. It was only then that Kanpeki declared Daigotsu's trump card.


Re read the terms of the deal, there was no room for this kind of action. Lying in a deal is breaking it. It was bad writing to make Spider the only ones to blame for the actions that are about to happen.

If it was just Seiken stripping Kanpeki of his clan champion hood, that would be fine, no problem there. Seiken broke part of the promise and that nulls it void, its the Bullshit of Kanpeki and daigotsu knowingly broke the deal since day one, which it 100% says, that makes me mad, like I have been imagining my faction wrong since day one just so they can justify Seiken not looking like an idiot for his actions.


Shawn Carman wrote:
I will be happy to answer any questions you might have.


Why did you specify in our Onyx story choice article that Kanpeki was genuinely going to feel betrayed and that the deal was held when it clearly wasn't and Kanpeki was a knowing accomplish of this, making none of this a betrayal in the slightest?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:04 pm 
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So the whole betrayal is because of a deal that was never a legit deal to begin with and there's yet another spontaneous way to protect against the taint that was never mentioned/conceived before today?

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:06 pm 
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Hi Shawn, great that you stop by and answer questions.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:11 pm 
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The question is this: Was Daigotsu right to prepare a plan in case the Iweko betrayed him? He might have lied, but that lie would have made no technical difference--and might as well never have existed--as long as the Iweko kept their end of the bargain. If Seiken had never turned on Kanpeki, no one would ever have been the wiser.

It's not like Daigotsu was planning to turn on Iweko first or anything.


This is exactly the nuance I was looking for. Is Daigotsu the one in the wrong for telling a lie that was really a precaution, and which never would have mattered if Seiken hadn't turned on Kanpeki? Or are the Iweko in the wrong: Seiken for turning on Kanpeki, and the Empress for defending his betrayal by negating Daigotsu's response?

Nuance doesn't mean "the Spider are victims, they've been wronged, their villainy is undeniably justified." Nuance implies that both sides have equal reasons to feel justified in their actions. Both sides have reasons to feel betrayed.


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:13 pm 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
1. Are we saying that Daigotsu, a relatively honest and noble villain, lied and that half the empire is tainted without ever knowing?

2. The empress knew about this, but can magically make taint not work because honor when that has never been the case before?

3. Did amnesty win the kotei votes? I haven't been checking up on that.

The betrayal was simply that, a betrayal. But the rest kind of confused me.


To answer your questions,

  1. ...what? Relatively honest and noble villain? Perhaps I have been reading him wrong...since forever.
  2. This one is really weird to me too, since it does feel like Iweko is God McGuffin in the Empire. I really like that Seiken is a far more human person, since Iweko seems to exist more as a plot device.
  3. Jon Butler made a good point on the main board about this one. He mentioned that the proclamation was merely announced, but it has yet to be made.

I ultimately feel that the scene was too short for what needed to be covered, even if this is indeed the first part of the betrayal. I find Seiken's action very reasonable, Kanpeki's response sloppy and inexperienced, and Iwekozan's bit really plot-ish. Again, with a little more time, it would have provided the details and closure to the anticipation building over the nature of the betrayal.

Also, thanks for dropping by, Shawn. My question to you is similar to Itsy's: how much "power" does Iweko actually have? (Realistically, if she does have the ability to make her followers immune to the taint, and has some degree of foresight, then she should be able to see what's about to happen.)


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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:19 pm 
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So, I'm going to throw some fuel on this fire by throwing down some quotes from Goddesses IV on this. But, in short? I saw this coming. And the statement about the Taint? Makes too much sense.

So, here is the original bargain between Iweko I and Daigotsu:

Goddesses 3 wrote:
Daigotsu clucked his tongue and turned to face the Empress. “I have come at the appointed hour, as agreed. I will hear your proposition, but I agree to nothing in advance.”

“The Empress assumes that you have assets in this area, then?” the Voice asked.

“I have numerous assets available, yes,” Daigotsu confirmed. “I suspect you are well aware of that fact already.”

“Very well then,” the Voice returned. “The Empress has foreseen that this threat cannot be overcome through light alone. The demon goddess Kali-ma represents a threat and affront to the whole of the Celestial Order, and the whole of the Celestial Order must stand against her for her to be defeated.”

“I have no love for the harlot goddess,” Daigotsu said with a wave. “You cannot imagine I will slay her for you, surely.”

“Yours is not the role of savior, but merely participant,” the Voice said. “In exchange for your role, those among your followers who have not embraced the touch of Jigoku will be granted amnesty and the right to bear the mon of the Spider as one of the Empress’ Minor Clans.”

“Completely inadequate,” Daigotsu said with a sneer.

The Voice glanced to the Empress, who nodded. “Additional concessions can be made, but the cost will be significant.”

“Clearly you have no notion of what you ask,” Daigotsu said. “My favor cannot be so cheaply purchased. Not like yours.”

“Be cautious with your words!” Jin-sahn barked.

“Be silent, pet,” Daigotsu said. “We are done here.”

“The Empress knows the hearts of her people,” the Voice said. “Even yours. She knows of your dreams for your son.”

Daigotsu had been in the process of summoning the darkness to ferry him away, but he stopped in an instant, the shadows dissipating. “Speak,” he said finally.

“The blessings of the Heavens can be granted to your son,” the Voice said. “His connection to the Realm of Evil will be severed, and he will be made lord of the Spider. He will become a noble of Rokugan, trained in the Imperial house, if you so wish.”

Daigotsu said nothing for a moment, and it was simple for Jin-sahn to imagine that he was licking his lips in anticipation behind his mask. “What is the cost you require for this… gift?” he asked cautiously.

The Empress withdrew something from her belt and handed it to the Voice, who regarded it incredulously and then reached forward with it. “Your life,” he answered quietly.

Daigotsu said nothing for several minutes. Then, with a steady, unwavering hand, he reached forward and took the Empress’ offered wakizashi.


This was then replaced by this bargain:

Goddesses 4 wrote:
He chuckled darkly. “My lord Daigotsu will now hear the terms of the previous arrangement.”

“The terms remain.”

“Unacceptable,” the Voice of Daigotsu replied.

“Recant your agreement with the Empress if you wish,” Satsu countered. “The beasts of Kali-ma have fled. The Shogunate can eradicate the whole of your remaining forces in one fell swoop, if you have no regard for the terms of your agreement. All will be killed on sight forever, and your son will gain nothing.”

“All Spider will be pardoned,” the Voice said, “and their status shall be that of a Great Clan, not a Minor Clan.”

“The Empress refuses,” Satsu said at once.

Again, Susumu laughed. “There is more to be offered, if the price can be paid,” he hinted.

Satsu glanced at the Empress and frowned. “Speak, then.”

“The Master of Jigoku can withhold the blessings of his realm from mortal souls,” Susumu said. “Agree to his terms, and my lord Daigotsu shall permit no human within the service of the Empress to suffer the blight you call the Shadowlands Taint unless they willingly accept his blessings.”

“There are scarcely enough Spider remaining to comprise a Minor Clan, much less prove worthy of the title of a Great Clan.”

Susumu scoffed. “Was such true of the Mantis when they ascended? Hardly.”

There was a moment of silence from the Empress and her Voice. “The people of Rokugan would be spared the Taint forever, then.”

“So long as our agreement stands,” Susumu confirmed.

Another silence followed. “For the sake of her people, and for an end to war, the Empress agrees to your terms. Exactly your terms, and nothing more.” Satsu seemed so weary that he might collapse. “Her interpretation thereof is above question, however.”

Susumu’s smile widened. “The Dark Lord has no fear of your interpretations,” he said.


The phrases I would like to call out in particular:

Quote:
“The Master of Jigoku can withhold the blessings of his realm from mortal souls,” Susumu said. “Agree to his terms, and my lord Daigotsu shall permit no human within the service of the Empress to suffer the blight you call the Shadowlands Taint unless they willingly accept his blessings.”


And:

Quote:
Another silence followed. “For the sake of her people, and for an end to war, the Empress agrees to your terms. Exactly your terms, and nothing more.” Satsu seemed so weary that he might collapse. “Her interpretation thereof is above question, however.”


At no point does Daigotsu agree that people could not gain the Shadowlands Taint. He, VERY SPECIFICALLY, agrees to withhold the blessings of his realm, and no human within the service of the Empress to suffer the "blight" unless they willingly accept it.

Not once does he promise to reign in the jealous nature of Jigoku. Not once does he say it is impossible for someone to not get Tainted. His wording was very specific.

And the Empress calls this out, and agrees solely to the terms of the agreement proposed.

By removing Daigotsu Kanpeki and the line of Jigoku from the rulership of the their Clan, Iweko Seiken does not actually violate the exact wording of the agreement. And by holding the Taint in abeyance, Daigotsu did not violate the exact wording of the agreement. In the rule of balance between Tengoku and Jigoku, by holding this influence back, Daigotsu allowed the vessel of Tengoku, the Empress, to work a more subtle influence of her own.

Also, Kanpeki doesn't KNOW that this will happen. He merely is suggesting it might as a means of trying to keep in control of what is rightfully his.

And for everyone who boohoos this as a non-betrayal? How would the Crab feel if Seiken told Kisada "Hey, your dad allied with the Shadowlands in the Clan War. I know you're descended from a Kami and all, but them Hiruma? I'm making my brother a Hiruma, and kicking you to the curb." Or if Seiken had done the same to the Lion, putting the Ikoma in charge.

By taking this step, Seiken is publicly shaming Daigotsu Kanpeki in front of the other Clan Champions, on grounds which were entirely trumped up, and pushing the situation that the entire Great Clan status of the Spider Clan was built on a foundation of sand to begin with.

This is a betrayal. This is a reason to go to war. Kanpeki served the Iweko as a Clan Champion, and this was his reward. Service earns only betrayal.

Bushido is a lie.

Welcome to Shourido.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:23 pm 
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I thought Kanpeki's responses were measured and restrained. I actually expected him to show more anger than he did. I see no tantrum--I see a man who just had his entire world turned upside-down, his father slandered, and himself demeaned and humiliated. Kozan stopped just short of calling him vermin. Kanpeki weathered it like a mountain.

The final blow for Kanpeki is that the secret safety measure his father prepared to prevent the Iweko's betrayal has not only been negated by the Empress, but it has also been turned into a charge of treachery against him.

This works completely for me. I can see both sides, and I applaud the story team.

And thanks, Shawn, for being around. I made some points in my previous post--am I interpreting this right?



(And sndwurks, that was an excellent and articulate post.)


Last edited by Shimane on Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: IA Fiction Thunderous Acclaim 1 (Kanpeki, Shibatsu)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:27 pm 
It depends on your definition of "suffer the blight" you call the shadowlands taint.


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