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 Post subject: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:05 pm 
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Is this anywhere online?


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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:10 am 
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TLDR: It didnt matter if Shiabatsu or Seiken takes the throne, apparently BOTH were going to not care for the Spider or aid the Spider's goals and Kanpeki says "If I cant have the empire, then no one can."

Because remember, the "Progressive/Traditionalist" conflict REALLY mattered :roll: We could have dominated and we would still be thrown under the bus.

Nah, which ever heir ascended the throne never mattered, they were both going to back stab the spider and cause Onix edition the way this was written.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:42 am 
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Now that you mention it, it is funny that even if Shibatsu had won he would have gone back on his word (because the starter fiction was printed before they knew who would win... interesting).

But to be fair, Seiken is more front-stabbing the Spider.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:05 pm 
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Hey, look at it this way, if the Phoenix and Unicorn were going to have to wait a year to see our Winter Court peace efforts reflected in the card game... then a lot, and I mean a lot of the macro-stuff was already set in stone.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:29 pm 
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Right, but with the Spider being the Big Bad Evil of the arc, it remains to be seen what of the Winter Court treaties involving the Spider Clan actually matter. After WC 3 when the civil war caused all treaties to become invalid, I had more hopes for a months-long official RPG event that based on what macro story is to come whose biggest advertisment is that nearly all of it will be canon.

Will the Mantis erect a Dark Temple, if the Spider turn heel (pardon my wrestling lingo *g*)? Will the Mantis trade Eastern Hub Village? Will it be corrupted, before it can be handed over (it shouldn't be high on anyone's icon list, if it is an icon at all). What about the shugenja to join the Gyushi? Granted, the question might be bigger for the Spider Clan than for others, but we players want Winter Court to matter (to a degree), and learning that only a tidbit did actually matter or that your choice of clan predetermined if your treaties actually meant anything would be ... suboptimal.

That there never really was a choice about who would become Emperor, because either option would have no impact on the story is bitter, but let's think positive here and hope that lessons will be learned from this. And that what lies ahead will be awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:30 pm 
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Audax wrote:
Right, but with the Spider being the Big Bad Evil of the arc, it remains to be seen what of the Winter Court treaties involving the Spider Clan actually matter. After WC 3 when the civil war caused all treaties to become invalid, I had more hopes for a months-long official RPG event that based on what macro story is to come whose biggest advertisment is that nearly all of it will be canon.

Will the Mantis erect a Dark Temple, if the Spider turn heel (pardon my wrestling lingo *g*)? Will the Mantis trade Eastern Hub Village? Will it be corrupted, before it can be handed over (it shouldn't be high on anyone's icon list, if it is an icon at all). What about the shugenja to join the Gyushi? Granted, the question might be bigger for the Spider Clan than for others, but we players want Winter Court to matter (to a degree), and learning that only a tidbit did actually matter or that your choice of clan predetermined if your treaties actually meant anything would be ... suboptimal.

That there never really was a choice about who would become Emperor, because either option would have no impact on the story is bitter, but let's think positive here and hope that lessons will be learned from this. And that what lies ahead will be awesome.


^This

I doubt anything from WC4 will matter if spider keeps going in the direction it has been heading then I dont see how ANY of spiders major treaties will matter.

Lets review a few of them.

1. Gyushi marriages: This simply wont happen if Spider goes bad. As a Unicorn player, the Unicorn was hesitent already, show evil and the deal is not worth the ink Naishi signed it.

2. Scorpion/Spider Goju Hunting: I never assumed this was going to be canon but already its gone. Shadow Dragon is gone and Yurishi has renewed the loyalty to the Hantei.

3. Hunting down Chosai with the Dragon: We go evil, this never happens... period.

4. Anything Progressive: The time window to Onix is mere months, nothing will happen with these.

5. Eastern Hub Village: We turn evil, anyone seriously believe that Seiken the fool will let us own land. HA

6. Otosan Uchi: HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAH Unless we corrupt it or use our Icon saves nopers.

Granted the future will tell, but I doubt any of these interesting interactions will matter at the route story is being forced to go. :(

I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but I will not be surprised if I am not wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:53 pm 
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AEG (Brand, Design & Story) obviously have a concrete plan for the Spider Clan, and it was already set in motion long before Winter Court. But we're currently, or so we are told, making decisions that will matter in about a year.

Based on former editions, their end often finished a story arc, and in a new story arc new plots would unfold, and often enough done damage undone. So all we currently know is that the Spider will be the big bad until the end of Ivory Edition. For Onyx Edition this might Change. If we and other clans now start dedicating our prizes to saving the Empire's icons altruistically, that's hardly the Story Team should ignore. Granted, just after the truth of the Heir competition and ist non-choice is revealed, saying that we're giving choices also means that they will matter sounds a bit crazy, but I'm willing to trust that Onyx Edition will be great and that Player interaction will become real player interaction again.

The Phoenix and Unicorn are told that there efforts will need at least a year to come to fruition. So it can as well be that the Spider Clan will need the same time, too. That we need to wait till Onyx until we will see the effects of Winter Court -- unless future choices clash with what our delegation did.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:03 pm 
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This would be an ideal time for someone from AEG to show up and discuss the elephant in the room

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:44 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
This would be an ideal time for someone from AEG to show up and discuss the elephant in the room


While I never mind AEG to chime in, I'd say the best time is when we learn more about the longterm goals of the clans and how we influence it. The story of 20F is not completely published either, and the next expansion is expected for July. Currently, we can cheer for Spider icons to be saved or corruption to be spread - and we are already told that our choices will matter for Onyx Edition. In addition to the promise of the ST that they want to resolve our outstanding prizes, I'm not sure what AEG would tell us now.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:51 pm 
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Quote:
Nah, which ever heir ascended the throne never mattered, they were both going to back stab the spider and cause Onix edition the way this was written.


You are incorrect. You do not yet see everything moving forward. As I mentioned elsewhere, please try to have some patience. The person on the throne absolutely matters to the Spider and the events of Winter Court IV will affect the story as much as we can work them in.

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I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but I will not be surprised if I am not wrong.


At least parts of what you are saying is wrong.

Quote:
This would be an ideal time for someone from AEG to show up and discuss the elephant in the room


The elephant cannot be Emperor.

Quote:
While I never mind AEG to chime in, I'd say the best time is when we learn more about the longterm goals of the clans and how we influence it.


This.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:12 pm 
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To be fair, the main issue why we believe the choice of the Emperor wasn't really a choice is because it looks like this is what happened.

If Seiken wins, the Spider will be betrayed. Start the Twenty Festivals Spider plot ...
If Shibatsu wins, the Spider will be betrayed. Start the Twenty Festivals Spider plot ...

That's because the Twenty Festivals starter fiction (and surely the arc's plot) was written before the Emperor competition was finished. So currently it looks like whoever both possible Emperors would have ended up beraying the Spider. Of course, what the betrayal is might be different, and a Spider hater keeping on hating the Spider is quite different from a Spider-fostered, Spider-supported Emperor betraying the Spider.

We have already seen that there are nuances and sideplots that (most likely) got only started because Seiken won - the option of dismantling bureaucracy or naming a Fortune -, and the hinted marriage of Shibatsu into the Susumu.

From where we stand, it does look as though, for the Spider, the choice of the Emperor wasn't actually a choice.

But I'll follow your advice and wait until we see the whole picture (the July expansion included) before rendering my final judgement. Nonetheless, I'm psyched about what you guys have in store for the Spider and, as always, I'm eager to riding it through with you and our playerbase. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:25 pm 
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I'll agree with Audax here. It really doesnt look like there was any real effect. Both heirs apparently were going to dismantle the bureocracy and hated Sukehime, both were going to screw the spider, both were losses for us, no matter what is all we see. Saying that is could have matter isnt something the fictions and cards seem to be pointing to and I am sure that the next few sets will point that out.

Considering that the only reason Shiabatsu was controversial in the heir conflict WAS the concept that his ascension would have led to the ascension of the Spider was HEAVILY weighing into the decisions of players when they thought it mattered.

Imagine our reaction if Shiabatsu DID win, and then we learned that he was not going to help us anyway but infact the whole "secret clan letter" we got was doomed the minute it was handed to us... The idea that we were working towards a lose/lose no matter what is where I find fault. It removes any belief that things could have been different and I honestly think this particular fiction, though nicely written, should never have been placed into our starters but given to us later, but that is me.

The perspective on our end right now is very grim for the pro-clan players, its been fiction after fiction pointing to the end of our time as a great clan. I hope it changes, I really do but that is all relying on story ;) Not to put pressure on you guys, we DO like you all afterall.

Add to all of this the heavily controversial methods of deciding the emperor its easy to see at the moment that we were screwed to go evil, the cards already played and decided well in advanced. For pro clan players that is the LAST thing they wanted to have happen, something they fought through winter court and the heir conflict heavily to oppose. To know that Kanpeki is planning on ruining everything WC4 worked for, cementing our status as a great clan and that it never mattered whether our 4 year game plan through emperor and Ivory, either way we end up losing status, which the fiction implies, is a blow to an already restless clan.

Give us a reason to be behind the direction, that is all we ask. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:38 pm 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
infact the whole "secret clan letter" we got was doomed the minute it was handed to us...


Hey, at least yours wasn't retconned within about a week of getting it...

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:32 am 
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You are assuming that if Shibatsu won then the 20F fiction would have been the same.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:59 am 
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It's a safe assumption, on the basis that we were told the product containing the relevant fiction was stuck on ships in the Pacific Ocean before Winter Court ended and the Heir chosen.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:14 am 
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Shi-Tien Yen-Wang wrote:
You are assuming that if Shibatsu won then the 20F fiction would have been the same.


How Shiabatsu screwed the spider would have been different for sure (and probably WAY more interesting then Seiken by FAR) but the starter fiction points out that he STILL would have screwed us in the long run and that Hoards was the direction before the emperor was even decided. Implying that the Heir ever mattered in the long run is not really useful now.

The quote:
Quote:
"Shiabatsu made Promises. Seiken did as well, in his own fasion. They are not, neither of them, compatible with what has gone before. I have little confidence that the day for which I have so long worked, my whole clan has so far worked, will arrive in the near future."


Is pretty damning to either heir's abilities to keep us from turning to hoards. Our entire clan letter from last year, our entire purpose to put Shiabatsu on the throne is ultimately for naught. This was written before WC4 was concluded, decided well before the emperor. Then you have:

Quote:
"The Spider will serve no master that does not also serve them,"


and my favorite:

Quote:
And if the Spider are denied any chance at ever ruling the empire, then I will see it destroyed instead."


Are both also big, flashing signs that NO amount of Pro- Great Clan input could stop where we are going. Celestial's win for Spider to be a great clan is being overturned no matter which heir wins. All we were deciding was what flavor of Spider turning we would see, when it was advertised in EVERYTHING that a win for Shiabatsu would have seen spider improve in the empire, instead of turning. All you have to do is look at WC4 spider players and the effort they gave, even trying to out the Goju, to retain clan status and see it grow. Progressive spider were advertised as wanting to become more like the empire, traditionalists wanted all out war.

If this fiction never was shown then we could have all simply blamed Seiken and the whole "the heir mattered" argument could have been used, but this shows that WC4's players for spider were doomed no matter what. Yeah, some of their deals will probably show up and some of their contributions might matter but the overall goal, helping spider stand as a Great clan in the empire and carve a place for itself... that one has not a single sign that it was ever going to matter with this fiction. Its a valid complaint, I still think this particular fiction should never have been printed in the starter set.

I'm not even going to TALK about the promises that our clan status is not threatened and to enjoy the ride by members of AEG's staff.

Shiabatsu turning on us could have been really fascinating and interesting, but with Seiken its pretty predictable. He hates us, we hate him, something happens and BOOM onix edition. Shiabatsu probably would have been more subtle and fascinating, maybe one day in the future we could know how it would have happened but Seiken is a little predictable. ;)

Not that we are saying anything bad against you guys. You are jumping in too late to be a part of that design process. If you can make it awesome I cant wait to see it, but the writing on the wall is too obvious right now for any talk that Shiabatsu would have been anything but the long run same result, just with a different flavor tied to it.

I''m sure we will see with the next few sets in the CCG which direction Spider is going and how much, or little, our preferences actually mattered.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:00 am 
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Shi-Tien Yen-Wang wrote:
You are assuming that if Shibatsu won then the 20F fiction would have been the same.

The Twenty Festivals, Part 1 fiction on the Imperial Herald? Yeah that would have been different, but we are talking about the piece written and printed last year before you joined the story team that was included in the Twenty Festivals Starters.


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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:10 am 
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Yeah, it seems pretty clear cut that our Clan's direction was going to be railroaded this way no matter which Heir won. Moreover, given that this appears to be set in stone, what was the bloody point of fighting for Shibatsu, the Heir we helped raise, if he was going to turn on us anyways? That's a real 'Kisada gets the Hantei Sword' prize there. Honestly, what was the point of even raising Shibatsu in the first place, if he was going to turn on us regardless.

Bleah. More and more the 'choice' of Emperor looks like a paint-by-numbers with just the names being different.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:48 am 
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CrimsonEyes wrote:
Bleah. More and more the 'choice' of Emperor looks like a paint-by-numbers with just the names being different.

The L5R story has been a glorified mad lib since the beginning, though.

No offense meant to any concerned parties, obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:23 pm 
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Mad lib hell!

*smirks* Ok, maybe a little.

I do not want to get into a huge speculative argument over whether or not a different choice would have mattered. I will tell you that your choices and your actions in the various Story-Relevant events are not ignored.

And will not be ignored.

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:58 pm 
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Shi-Tien Yen-Wang wrote:
Mad lib hell!

*smirks* Ok, maybe a little.

I do not want to get into a huge speculative argument over whether or not a different choice would have mattered. I will tell you that your choices and your actions in the various Story-Relevant events are not ignored.

And will not be ignored.


That's the thing, going forward I have great confidence in you guys. The past year was the worst for spider in EVERY way in its history, but this year is looking better already. I'm excited for the future and am finishing my first big bounty prize as we speak!

We are lementing the past, but almost everyone is hopeful for the future. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:01 pm 
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There will always be a base direction based on having to prep a product a year in advance. I can forgive that necessity. It's been that way for all 20 years of the game. The truest test will be seeing how recent choices that aren't as constrained by production dates are played out. Winter Court actions will be some of the most obvious ones to watch. Let's not assume the worst before they've had a chance to do it. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:48 am 
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Pardon me for stepping slightly off the topic, but: is there a link to this starter fiction online anywhere?

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:05 am 
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You mean...... pardon you for getting this dicussion back to the original reason I posted it?

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 Post subject: Re: 20F Starter fiction?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:07 am 
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...yes, that. I, uh... humbly beg your pardon for getting back on topic?

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