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 Post subject: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:45 pm 
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If someone wants to sticky this, I will come in and answer questions you have as I can do so in an orderly way.

We could edit the above and include Max as well.

I'll bookmark this and check back.

Stickied and edited. Thanks for the offer! - Audax

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:55 pm 
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this is a fantastic offer and one i think i can safely speak for all spiders in calling it much appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:47 pm 
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Quote:
If bad things happen to the Spider because of Seiken, bad things happen. You as the Spider playerbase will decide how to react to the bad things, if they occur. Will you roll over and die, eight legs curled up and weak, complaining about how Seiken screwed you out of your clan? Or will you fight and prove your worth? Will you take, not ask?


The biggest question I have for you and all the other big wigs is at AEG is this:
Will you please both the Shadowlands Hordes players and the Spider Great Clan players?
Can we co-exist? Will you remember to throw bones to both sides?

The way things seem to be going is in a one way direction to the Hordes aspect to the clan, some players are rejoicing, others not so much. I understand this is quite the conundrum but after taking a break I realized you can have the cake and eat it too when it come to these divisions among the Spider clan. Will we be able to have our Daigotsu Geikos alongside ours Bog-Hags? Or is it "one or the other" situation?

(copied my question on the other thread for archive reasons)
(Also this balance is really personal, I know people who only care about the Hordes aspects, I only care about the 'face to the Empire' aspect and I know a good deal of people who enjoy certain aspects of both camps.)

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:58 pm 
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I will add that the tension between the two- Lost Loyalists and Empire Loyalists- is actually one of the most interesting things the Spider have going on in-story, at least for me. It's about all that sets the Spider apart from their enemies in the Crab and Scorpion in terms of character- they're hashing out what they want to be, while all nominally being in the same boat. Susumu's "serving two masters" taken to the nth degree.

So, as far as questions go... I hope that this tension isn't simply swept under the rug in the name of the Spider choosing some direction or another in the face of Seiken's coronation?

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:00 pm 
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Shiba Gunichi wrote:
I will add that the tension between the two- Lost Loyalists and Empire Loyalists- is actually one of the most interesting things the Spider have going on in-story, at least for me. It's about all that sets the Spider apart from their enemies in the Crab and Scorpion in terms of character- they're hashing out what they want to be, while all nominally being in the same boat. Susumu's "serving two masters" taken to the nth degree.

So, as far as questions go... I hope that this tension isn't simply swept under the rug in the name of the Spider choosing some direction or another in the face of Seiken's coronation?


I'll echo this feeling. Tension is what makes me love the Spider so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:09 pm 
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I see one problem with that tension, though:

Eventually, one side or the other is going to have to win. The Spider can't continue to harbor tsukai, undead and tainted forever. This isn't like the Dragon, where individual paths are allowed so long as they don't lead to damnation. At some point, the Spider will probably have to either turn away from damnation or accept it.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:10 pm 
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Why did you ok the blatantly minmaxed Yasuki Kyoko?


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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:20 pm 
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taikishi wrote:
I see one problem with that tension, though:

Eventually, one side or the other is going to have to win. The Spider can't continue to harbor tsukai, undead and tainted forever. This isn't like the Dragon, where individual paths are allowed so long as they don't lead to damnation. At some point, the Spider will probably have to either turn away from damnation or accept it.


Fair point. But can the Spider truly ever overcome his past?
Can it deny it's future in the empire?

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:32 pm 
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Can the Spider overcome it? Possibly. But overcoming it doesn't mean universal acceptance. I doubt the Lion, the Crab, and the Scorpion will ever accept the Spider. The other clans? In time.

Honestly, I really don't get the hub bub about Shourido from the Great Clans. It's fully possible reconcile Shourido and Bushido. Reconciling oni, undead, and what not is another matter.

As for denying the Spider's future? That depends on what future you're talking about and which side of the Spider you're talking to.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:39 pm 
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Having seen the immediate future and helping with the direction of every clan, I personally believe you are going to see good for both sides of the Spider.

I think the Spider have serious potential to direct the course of their future. That being said the two may not always live side by side. Without confirming or denying any ideas, I think after a point you cannot expect to enjoy both corruption and try to be a part of an Empire that loathes that corruption.

The immediate future of Spider will see answers to its future. Give the story time, the Spider a chance to mature.


Atsushi, all players who followed the character creation guidelines and had a good focus were accepted. Kyoko was by the book, had an amazing idea for the character, and while hyper focused was able to play numerous sides.

I would also point out that Kyoko lost in a duel, to you, and died. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:46 pm 
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Quote:
I think the Spider have serious potential to direct the course of their future. That being said the two may not always live side by side. Without confirming or denying any ideas, I think after a point you cannot expect to enjoy both corruption and try to be a part of an Empire that loathes that corruption.


Does the story team realize said conflict is part of the Spider identity? If so, are they ready to have both concepts separated? Or this choice will be a "One or Another"?

The first choice would fragment the player base a bit, the second one would kill a entire venue for players. Considering most players who like the Shadowlands Horde to the point of representing them are CCG based and the Spider as a great clan is from the RPG crowd is there any long term plans to balance the two similar/participative fanbase from two different (but related) games?

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:48 pm 
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Shi-Tien Yen-Wang wrote:
Atsushi, all players who followed the character creation guidelines and had a good focus were accepted. Kyoko was by the book, had an amazing idea for the character, and while hyper focused was able to play numerous sides.

I would also point out that Kyoko lost in a duel, to you, and died. :)

Based on the statistics of it all, a duel he had no business winning except to prove Aizawa was a dirtbag.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:04 pm 
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Shi-Tien Yen-Wang wrote:
Atsushi, all players who followed the character creation guidelines and had a good focus were accepted. Kyoko was by the book, had an amazing idea for the character, and while hyper focused was able to play numerous sides.

I would also point out that Kyoko lost in a duel, to you, and died. :)


I've played Exalted for years and ST'd Exalted through several successful campaigns. It is a constant struggle to keep people from min/maxing. Keeping people from deforming the universe, where people perform at one level and lore/npc's another, with broken garbage. I take it as very lazy to point to the fact that Atsushi got very lucky and pulled out a win. It was not balanced or fair. Hence the OOC fear, cause the borked stuff was known and allowed.

Your comment is nothing more than, "O ya, the air bags can deploy with explosive force, but you survived - so *smarm* its all ok".

Disingenuous at best.

---

I feel it is the same way with Spider. You present a faction of Maho and Taint. Then you switch scripts on people - loyalists did not sign up for that. That is setting it up to fail.

The best case scenario at this point is for Seiken to revoke Great Clan status, get nuked by Daddy D, then thrown off the throne by his own brother to restore the Empire. Let the Empire see that the greatest threat to it is the Spider (a threat they can remove by simply accepting us). The greatest threat is turning its back on the Spider. Rokugan, you are in our web now, and if you curse us and call us enemy? You only ask that hell be wrought down upon your heads. The samurai and the Empress herself can either bite their tongues and swallow their pride - or suffer endless corruption and corrosion of their home. Because? Because a deal has been struck and your souls are damned for it. You have brought the demon into your home and a thousand curses if you banish him from your domain. You must learn to live with your choices, honor your oaths and be loyal to your own word. Make us the hard pill to swallow.

Right now? No one has a reason to accept us - if they oust us? What is the harm done? Have some honor and glory for gods sake :/

No, when you slight the Spider, it should straight jack you up. Others should point, step back, and say "I'm glad that's not us - lets not get involved." Right now? No one fears the Spider. We are presented as a small and ineffectual clan, a clan that constantly grumbles and whines in their dark hives. A Clan, that within these last two threads, has had the story team call it out for infighting and disunity. WC was all about unity if I recall :/ If Spider is going to be anything - there must be bite in their fangs.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:56 am 
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Is the Spider's "Damning Knowledge" going to play a further role in the story now that it's been revealed in the Winter Court RPG? Will it tie into the Kotei results?

Will East Hub Village and by extension, Otosan Uchi play a greater role in the Spider's arc now that it's one of their only holdings in the Empire proper?

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 Post subject: Re: Hand - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:25 am 
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Shi-Tien Yen-Wang wrote:
Atsushi, all players who followed the character creation guidelines and had a good focus were accepted. Kyoko was by the book, had an amazing idea for the character, and while hyper focused was able to play numerous sides.


By the book yes, but that did not mean that it wasn't the type of screwiness you were supposed to catch and prevent. You let book Rules a Written get around WC4 Rules as Intended.

It was abuse of a loophole to get around the max skill rank 5 limitation. Through the use of the Reincarnated Advantage (6 points) and not choosing Iaijutsu as her school skill, she had an effective Iaijutsu skill of 6 and also got +1k0 in 2 other skills for the cost of a limited version of a 2 point disadvantage. She got the benefit of the Prodigy advantage for the skill that was important for 6 points cheaper than she should have.

Her concept would not have changed if you have made Iaijutsu one of her School skills and the Reincarnated bonus to another skill

Quote:
I would also point out that Kyoko lost in a duel, to you, and died. :)

And I admit that I lucked out. How much I lucked out wasn't apparent until I saw her sheet. I was 10k5 Assement/11k6+9 focus vs what turned out to be something like 10k7+4 Assessment/11k8+13 Focus.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:45 am 
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Bit confused here lads, is this for WC related questions or ST ones? Cause the two are very different animals.

As an update, just know I've been working on part of the Twenty Festivals fiction, and will include some more updates on the impact of Seiken's impending coronation as the new Emperor.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:07 am 
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Thanks for offering this Questions & Answers, guys!

I'll have some questions (and comments), but allow me a prologue first.

I've been a Shadowlands Horde player since I was told about the Fall of the Kami and decided that Fu Leng's story appealed to me most. Back then Daigotsu had already created and reclaimed the City of the Lost and there was an alliance coming with the Jackals. As I've always been more interested in the human part of the Horde than in the oni and goblins. So when the Spider Clan was created, I naturally embraced it as my faction.

This might be why I don't perceive the split between Hordies and Clanners so drastic as others. But in the CCG I still consider the Shadowlands Taint as our faction's signature keyword, as well as corresponding keywords like Maho, Undead and Oni. As many other Horde players, I enjoy corruption stories that are spread, because there cannot be all evil gathered in just one clan or faction. So when the keywords appear on other clan's, too, I also enjoy that. Or the stories about it, like the Asahina daimyo trying to tame the Anvil of Despair and terribly failing. But the keyword Conqueror, which might be considered a Spider keyword, just doesn't trigger the same emotional response, because it is put on non-Spider Personalities not for a story connection, but for a mechanical effect. The Matsu daimyo surely hasn't trained with the Daigotsu to earn that keyword. But if she had Shadowlands, she would have given in to Jigoku.

That there are scions of Jigoku (or Jigoku's clan) who are not Tainted is quite interesting; and I loved the many wicked deals Daigotsu Susumu made as Imperial Advisor; or that Rezan appeared before the Empress and, as a Lost, was granted the privilege of sepukku to right all his many, many sins. There was a lot of potential there. Still is. But to me what made the Spider always interesting were the infiltrators and the hidden agenda to one day take over the Empire. Even when we won story prizes were things like a poem to honour the Empress and suchlike, there was always a hidden agenda, so we knew that even if we weren't thrilled about the nature of the prize (because it felt too much like a prize for a loyal clan) it is just one piece of a larger mosaik. This united the maho-tsukai and oni summoners with the courtiers. And I think this is something we need again.

We know some great evil is coming and Winter Court IV made it clear that the Spider have some expert knowledge on Jigoku that might needed to help. All Clans uniting versus some BIG BAD EVIL has worked before, so this is where I presume that the Spider Clan can gain the respect of the new Emperor. Because, let's be honest, Daigotsu changing the Taint back to normal and the Second Pit claiming thousands of souls as a result is a scenario I don't see happening.

But, finally, some questions:

• There are some outstanding story prizes for the Spider that date back to 2011. Among them is that Spider characters will become Imperial Matchmaker and Imperial Scribe. The timing would presume that they will be serving under Emperor Seiken. Will these story prizes be resolved? Do you have a time-frame for them?

• During her tenth anniversary coronation Iweko deified one hero chosen by each Great Clan. The Lion chose Ikoma Otemi, but the other new Minor Fortunes are currently unknown. Would you be so kind as to tell us who the Spider is? He or she would be the very first Spider who now resides in the Heavens. While I'm sure that to learn the names of the new Minor Fortunes will be appreciated by all clans, for us the identity has a huge significance for the Spider.

• Will there be more Dark Fortunes? The Dark Fortunes and their veneration has been only surficially covered, but Daigotsu has deified his wife, one of his loyal subjects and two summoners of oni lords (Isawa Akuma due to a story prize). Will there more Dark Fortunes in the future? It just seems odd to me that Moto Tsume, Daigotsu Hotako, Goju Kyoden or Roshungi aren't in Daigotsu's hellish court yet. Omoni I would list, too, but he seems to still be alive.

• Possible Retcon regarding Susumu Takuan. Takuan was introdcuded to us as the second son of the Otomo daimyo. He married into the Spider for ambition and eventually found love. The card flavour text for Otomo Terumoto says that Takuan is his older brother. This would drastically change his story. Is he the younger brother or the Heir apparent, who for whatever reason became a Spider?

• We all see Fu Leng die and part of his divine power gifted to Daigotsu. Will there be a chance to see a return of Fu Leng (and/or his soul) to the story, possibly even by dedicating story prizes of the current kotei season?

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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:09 am 
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Daigotsu Max wrote:
Bit confused here lads, is this for WC related questions or ST ones? Cause the two are very different animals.


I think it is for questions for the Story Team. Since teh Story Team was part of the GM Team of Winter Court, there are questions that blur the line between the two teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:10 am 
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Except this isn't a story team question so much as a "why did you, as GM, approve this?" Not really sure it's an appropriate question for the nature of this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:18 am 
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taikishi wrote:
Except this isn't a story team question so much as a "why did you, as GM, approve this?" Not really sure it's an appropriate question for the nature of this thread.


I agree that we should focus on the story and less on why character sheets were approved and rules were interpreted this or that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:57 am 
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Alright, I'll give these a shot:

Audax wrote:
• There are some outstanding story prizes for the Spider that date back to 2011. Among them is that Spider characters will become Imperial Matchmaker and Imperial Scribe. The timing would presume that they will be serving under Emperor Seiken. Will these story prizes be resolved? Do you have a time-frame for them?


We're aware there are a lot of unresolved story prizes, for the Spider like for all other Clans. The intent is for us to resolve them all, but due to the reduced story team last year there is a lot to get to. As such we cannot provide a time frame, but we do intend to get as many done as possible - it's no coincidence I started with Shiho and the Last Tribe.

Quote:
• During her tenth anniversary coronation Iweko deified one hero chosen by each Great Clan. The Lion chose Ikoma Otemi, but the other new Minor Fortunes are currently unknown. Would you be so kind as to tell us who the Spider is? He or she would be the very first Spider who now resides in the Heavens. While I'm sure that to learn the names of the new Minor Fortunes will be appreciated by all clans, for us the identity has a huge significance for the Spider.


I'm unsure this was ever fully resolved, I'll have to look into it.

Quote:
• Will there be more Dark Fortunes? The Dark Fortunes and their veneration has been only surficially covered, but Daigotsu has deified his wife, one of his loyal subjects and two summoners of oni lords (Isawa Akuma due to a story prize). Will there more Dark Fortunes in the future? It just seems odd to me that Moto Tsume, Daigotsu Hotako, Goju Kyoden or Roshungi aren't in Daigotsu's hellish court yet. Omoni I would list, too, but he seems to still be alive.


Well, having a crowded court in hell is a bit of a recipe for disaster! But I see no reason why there shouldn't be new Dark Fortunes - this just hasn't come up yet. We'll keep those in mind though.

Quote:
• Possible Retcon regarding Susumu Takuan. Takuan was introdcuded to us as the second son of the Otomo daimyo. He married into the Spider for ambition and eventually found love. The card flavour text for Otomo Terumoto says that Takuan is his older brother. This would drastically change his story. Is he the younger brother or the Heir apparent, who for whatever reason became a Spider?


*hiss* retcon. Such an ugly word. I can't say off the top of my head, I'll look into it as well.

Quote:
• We all see Fu Leng die and part of his divine power gifted to Daigotsu. Will there be a chance to see a return of Fu Leng (and/or his soul) to the story, possibly even by dedicating story prizes of the current kotei season?


I doubt it, honestly. Daigotsu is for all intents and purposes the new Fu Leng. Players are free to dedicate their story prizes the way they want, within the limits of the tournaments, but I'd advise focusing on the new and/or existing characters rather than trying to bring old ones back.



As an aside, please note Chris, Mari, and I are still learning the ST ropes - so be patient :D the only thing I can promise you is that we do intend to produce fictions more regularly than last year, which should help get the overall story back into clearer, more detailed shape.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:43 am 
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Daigotsu Max wrote:
We're aware there are a lot of unresolved story prizes, for the Spider like for all other Clans. The intent is for us to resolve them all, but due to the reduced story team last year there is a lot to get to. As such we cannot provide a time frame, but we do intend to get as many done as possible - it's no coincidence I started with Shiho and the Last Tribe.


That's good to hear. :mrgreen:

Quote:
*hiss* retcon. Such an ugly word. I can't say off the top of my head, I'll look into it as well.


I wasn't aware that it's a negative word. And the issue clearly isn't on the level of "Han shot first". The two relevant sources are: State of the Clans, Part 3 and the newly revealed Otomo Terumoto.

Quote:
I doubt it, honestly. Daigotsu is for all intents and purposes the new Fu Leng. Players are free to dedicate their story prizes the way they want, within the limits of the tournaments, but I'd advise focusing on the new and/or existing characters rather than trying to bring old ones back.


For me it's not a matter of wanting to have a cool character back. It's just that L5R is the story of the Kami and their followers, and whatever Daigotsu now may be, he is not the son of Lord Moon and Lady Sun. But generally, I'm not a fan of god-slaying. But with reincarnation of souls, one does never know who might resurface when and where. There was even a story prize at the World Championship about a slain god's soul getting reincarnated.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:44 am 
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Audax wrote:
taikishi wrote:
Except this isn't a story team question so much as a "why did you, as GM, approve this?" Not really sure it's an appropriate question for the nature of this thread.


I agree that we should focus on the story and less on why character sheets were approved and rules were interpreted this or that way.


Perhaps we should do a separate thread then? I have quite a few questions about GMing a so big event, like about handling timezones, conflicting actions, setting coherence...


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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:50 am 
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Ceithir wrote:
Perhaps we should do a separate thread then? I have quite a few questions about GMing a so big event, like about handling timezones, conflicting actions, setting coherence...


I've created a thread over here. If Chris wants to stop by and answer your questions, that's entirely up to him, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Hand & Max - Story Team Questions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:52 am 
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I will say that the idea of Fu Leng getting reincarnated is one of the things that a lot of the Spider Clan players that I have spoken with would like to see.

Similar to how Moto Naleesh is the reincarnation of Shinjo, we should probably expect to see this come about in another generation or so. Though I would love to see a faction of the Order of the Spider who are completely devoted to seeking out the reincarnation of Fu Leng (and Onnatangu for that matter, as Tsudao is all but confirmed as the reincarnation of Amaterasu).

Back on topic...

To both Max and Hand, what aspects of the Spider Clan do you feel are the central points of their narrative?

For example, the central points of the narrative of the Crane Clan are beauty vs vanity, the cultural heart of the Empire, and the Left Hand of the Empress / Emperor; the Lion are victory vs honor, the righteous soul of Bushido, and the Right Hand of the Empress / Emperor.

As members of the Story Team, what aspects of the Spider Clan make you want to write about them? What inherent conflicts in their nature drive their story forward? What parts of their history define them? How do they fit into the greater narrative of Legend of the Five Rings?

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