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 Post subject: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:11 pm 
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http://www.l5r.com/2015/07/22/gen-con-2 ... k-scrolls/

Let me sum up: fuck you spider, thanks for traveling all the way the Indianapolis but it turns out it wasn't really necessary. You literally are not allowed to influence the outcome of a major event, unlike every other clan. Suck it.

I swear to god. It's like aeg has a monthly quota of dumb fucking moves it has to hit

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:49 pm 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
http://www.l5r.com/2015/07/22/gen-con-2015-black-scrolls/

Let me sum up: fuck you spider, thanks for traveling all the way the Indianapolis but it turns out it wasn't really necessary. You literally are not allowed to influence the outcome of a major event, unlike every other clan. Suck it.

I swear to god. It's like aeg has a monthly quota of dumb fucking moves it has to hit

Yep. It's even worse when the article specifically calls Yogo Junzo's Army, Jigoku, and Spider the same thing.
Well, if they're the same thing, why didn't Spider get a playable card from Siege like everyone else did?

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:12 am 
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"Thus, if Yogo Junzo’s Army (aka Spider aka Jigoku)"

Ok. We can close this site now. Bye Spider Clan, and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:05 am 
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So, if I run an entirely unTainted Susumu deck at the Challenge Booth, would this be considered officially trolling?

Though in all seriousness, Embrace the Darkness DID win the vote. Which means we are heading back to the days of the Horde, because the majority of Spider players want to. Does it feel disenfranchising and slightly hamfisted that the entire Black Scrolls set up is effectively Spider vs Everyone when we have been told that that was not the intent of Onyx?

Just a little.

I'm putting together a Susumu deck for this event.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:27 am 
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They're only saying you can't play against Yogo Junzo in the Challenge Booths. You can ask to play as Yogo Junzo, just like last year they let Naga players play as the Dark Naga. You still get to see if you win a Black Scroll in the Main and Second Chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:37 am 
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Wait? How is this not a Spider influenced event? We just have to win pods. Its like the "Who kills which general of the Dark Naga" except we either get a black scroll or we get a pure realm born soul that can....wait what?

I have no problem with much of this. The siege event determines if rokugan gets the scroll or if Jigoku (us) auto gets it. THEN the pod determines who actually gets it or who get someone actually able to open the damn things without auto tainting.

I'm not a fan of realm born, seem a little too good to be true in the dark oblivion of Onyx, taint immune people are not really exciting in a setting that involves Rokugan literally becoming hell.

But If this is like last year, where they sent 5 people against the siege and the Dark Naga did a pitiful performance (cant have the siege game look too hard now can we) then I would assume that the scrolls are all going to the clans so just have spiders try to win the lower pods and we could easily grab one or two of these.

Goodness, perfectly interactive and spider has just as much chance, if not more then any other clan to get these.

CALM DOWN PEOPLE! Sheesh...

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:50 am 
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For those of you who haven't played S:HoD, it is not easy to win, though there were several tricks to beat it easily. That's what was happening toward the end of Gen Con.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:12 am 
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kakita_shiro wrote:
For those of you who haven't played S:HoD, it is not easy to win, though there were several tricks to beat it easily. That's what was happening toward the end of Gen Con.


I'll add to it that the seige decks can also snowball uncontrollably to a crushing Naga victory.

The tale of Ornatov being allowed to run the seige deck and annihilating the opposition is still fresh in my memory.

And Clan War is supposed to be MUCH harder then the Heart of Darkness with clans having to go on the offensive, so much more difficult then just defending.

I would not be surprised if we auto nab the first scroll through the challenge booth and then have Rokugan reclaim the rest as players break the game for later challengers.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:26 am 
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Mechanically, the Clan war Siege deck is built to take advantage of Shadowlands cards. If you play Shadowlands against the Shadowlands, you are very likely to lose. That's all they are saying. I don't know if they've discussed why yet, and so I'll leave it at that. If you have an untainted Spider deck that you want to play, go for it. But in this case, you are actively working against the Spider/Jigoku(so it makes sense to be using untainted people!)

If as a Spider player, you can request to run the Siege player, I wholeheartedly suggest you do.
1) You'll be backing your own horse.
2) It should be lots of fun.

Other than the Challenge events, Spiders will be able to play as normal.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:44 am 
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Playing AS the Siege deck might be interesting. And it might mean that I simply go to GenCon without bringing a single L5R deck as all I am planning on playing in was the Challenge Booth and the Draft events...

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:59 am 
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The reasons, so I've gathered, for the " don't play shadowlands" rule is because the theme of this seige deck is corruption. The deck gives shadowlands to the personalities of the other players and start throwing corruption tokens on them. If they reach a point, probably more corruption then their chi, they probably join the Junzo side and become his personalities, which is why it's a race for the challengers, they have to take provinces as fast as possible before too many of their personalities become defenders for Fu Leng. It's why all the thunders but Tadaka are shadowlands immune, so Junzo doesn't steal them.

That is what I have been able to guess based on what has been said so yeah, bringing shadowlands bodies is almost like giving Junzo free units late game if I am correct.

Plus it's freaking clan wars, as much as I agree not getting a card is a thing they could have done different, spider should not be really that much of a factor right now in the actual challenge booth. It's just a story we have no part in, besides being the villain. Claiming the scrolls should be only the work of the Junzo players so let's make sure the best and most dangerous players back Fu-Leng.

As for the scrolls, if we plan and send powerful players to ensure that each pod has a powerful Spider player... We go for it. Forget the Gencon super prize, aim for the other scrolls. I would happily scrub out of the Top X if it put me in a pod with weaker players for the black scroll I wanted.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:23 am 
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In addition, if you are playing as a Rokugani player in the Challenge booths, you are actively working against the Spider Clan being awarded Black Scrolls.

Focus on Siege Clan War: Clock Cards and Territories wrote:
Above we spoke about Threat Tiers. Each Black Scroll has three Threat Tiers. As the Black Scrolls are opened, knowledge and power are gained, but at a price. Early in the game, this corruption is slow, almost unnoticeable, gaining only one Corruption token each time a Black Scroll is opened and only Threat Tier 1 resolves. However, as the game progresses, and Threat Tier 2 and then 3 start resolving, Rokugani Personalities will start getting two, and then three Corruption tokens every turn. A Samurai can only handle so much and at a certain tipping point, they fall and fully become Shadowlands. At this point, they are perfect pawns for Yogo Junzo, Fu Leng, and their insidious plans.


Also, my understanding of the deck is similar to that of Itsy's. Shadowlands/Corruption = moar units for Junzo! However, I think it's a little different. Normally, corruption tokens would be given out during the course of the game, once a personality is given so many(probably based on Force/Chi) they become Shadowlands. And then I imagine Junzo has a way to snag Shadowlands personalities. So playing Shadowlands personalities skips the whole corruption part, and just gives Junzo free dudes from the start. So not even a late game bonus. More like a "thanks for showing up, here's your parting gift."

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:32 am 
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When it comes to the scrolls, the challenge booth isn't as important as the pods in the main event and second chance, winning any of those gives you the scrolls no matter what, we won't have the case where we get a shiny person instead of a scroll, we win in the booth AND the pod then we get both.

As of right now the chances are more likely in our favor for the scrolls, it's pretty good for us.

What they do is a whole nother thing entirely as they lack the real power they used to have.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:18 am 
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wait, you can play as junzo? i didn't get that at all from the event description, nor from watching last year's. though i'll grant i didn't sit and watch every one, every one i did see had an AEG employee behind the naga. thus my fury.

because its not even about what we are or aren't getting in this case. its about agency and the fact that spider too frequently get ganked around on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:34 am 
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It would be interesting if this was the equivalent for the Yogo Junzo's Army deck to the Dark Naga deck's Naga Warrior personalities. Instead of just getting free bodies you can blow up to draw cards, the YJA player takes control of a Shadowlands Personality at the Battlefield, draws a card, and has an effect along with it.

And I plan on spectating the first Challenge Booth, and playing in the second. I will be bringing my own Susumu deck in case they won't let me play the YJA deck... but I will see if I can talk Reese or Dineen into allowing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:00 am 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
wait, you can play as junzo? i didn't get that at all from the event description, nor from watching last year's. though i'll grant i didn't sit and watch every one, every one i did see had an AEG employee behind the naga. thus my fury.

Last year, some of the few players that consider themselves loyal to the Naga (Dan Heinrich for sure, Chris Justice maybe) were allowed to play as the Dark Naga, as well Andrew Ornatov (who crushed my pod). I think Chris Stevenson of Strange Assembly was allowed also, but on this point I could be wrong.

The point is that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Ask. If they say no, do something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:51 am 
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TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
When it comes to the scrolls, the challenge booth isn't as important as the pods in the main event and second chance, winning any of those gives you the scrolls no matter what, we won't have the case where we get a shiny person instead of a scroll, we win in the booth AND the pod then we get both.

As of right now the chances are more likely in our favor for the scrolls, it's pretty good for us.

What they do is a whole nother thing entirely as they lack the real power they used to have.


I'm not sure if we're on the same page or not.
The way I read it, is that the Challenge booth games are in sets of 3. Best of 3 wins the scroll. The associated Main Event/Second Change Pods determine which clan it goes to(in case of a Rokugani win in the Challenge event) as well as a realm-born personality. If Jigoku wins the challenge pod we get a scroll. If Spider wins the event pod, we get a personality. If Jigoku wins the challenge pod 3-0, we get both.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:59 am 
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Chuda Riichi wrote:
TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
When it comes to the scrolls, the challenge booth isn't as important as the pods in the main event and second chance, winning any of those gives you the scrolls no matter what, we won't have the case where we get a shiny person instead of a scroll, we win in the booth AND the pod then we get both.

As of right now the chances are more likely in our favor for the scrolls, it's pretty good for us.

What they do is a whole nother thing entirely as they lack the real power they used to have.


I'm not sure if we're on the same page or not.
The way I read it, is that the Challenge booth games are in sets of 3. Best of 3 wins the scroll. The associated Main Event/Second Change Pods determine which clan it goes to(in case of a Rokugani win in the Challenge event) as well as a realm-born personality. If Jigoku wins the challenge pod we get a scroll. If Spider wins the event pod, we get a personality. If Jigoku wins the challenge pod 3-0, we get both.


thats how i read it. i don't really care who finds the scroll. i care if we ultimately end up with it or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:23 am 
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Oh I read it wrong, I thought that if it went to rokugan then spider could still snag it by winning a pod, now I see that it actually means we can never get it except by the booth. Spider CCG players are simply not allowed to win a scroll except the main event prize...

Notice how we are no longer "Rokugan" any more...

Never mind, that actually sucks as realm-born are neigh useless to the spider, who shouldn't care for the consequences. Couldn't we get actually evil rewards instead of blessings of the realms opposing us? And what good is a realm born if you don't have a scroll to open in the first place.

So NOW I see why people are upset, because unless you are allowed to play Junzo we get no real method of gaining a scroll. Instead we have to hope that the chosen players win it all for us in the booth, which failed utterly last time.

This could either be great or absolutely terrible depending on who they put in that booth as that is now the real spider representative. The spider players have no real incentive to get in pods at all then...

Bugger.

And people said to not worry, embracing wouldn't remove us as a real legitament faction... That's pretty bad right there.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:47 am 
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Ok... Nothing says spider can't play. It just says you can't play with shadowlands personalities. Obviously, it's a WAY bigger challenge to put something together without shadowlands peeps in it, but the 'option' is still there.

I guess the biggest bummer I have about this is that this is a set that people are supposed to be excited to buy and play with their friends. It seems to alienate spider players from the fun for all packaging this is supposed to bring. I guess, the spider players can always play as Junzo with their playgroup, but that can only be fun for so long. And, of course, Spider players can play non shadowlands decks. :p

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:05 am 
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Non-Kokujin Monksai or Susumu? Eh.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:09 am 
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Sparks wrote:
Ok... Nothing says spider can't play. It just says you can't play with shadowlands personalities. Obviously, it's a WAY bigger challenge to put something together without shadowlands peeps in it, but the 'option' is still there.


In the event, this is actually hindering Spider getting a prize. You'd be helping the other side. Which is okay, just understand that it is more of a "Walk the Light" option.

Sparks wrote:
I guess the biggest bummer I have about this is that this is a set that people are supposed to be excited to buy and play with their friends. It seems to alienate spider players from the fun for all packaging this is supposed to bring. I guess, the spider players can always play as Junzo with their playgroup, but that can only be fun for so long. And, of course, Spider players can play non shadowlands decks. :p


I have yet to grow tired of smashing face with the Dark Naga. I would much rather be smashing face with Junzo and Fu Fu.

TheItsyBitsySpider wrote:
Never mind, that actually sucks as realm-born are neigh useless to the spider, who shouldn't care for the consequences. Couldn't we get actually evil rewards instead of blessings of the realms opposing us? And what good is a realm born if you don't have a scroll to open in the first place.


Gaki-do is a realm. Not all of the realms are good. There are still plenty of realms that could work for Spider. Hey, here's the chance for someone to further a connection to Meido and Emma-O if they want. Toshigoku, the Realm of Slaughter? Sounds pretty metal to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:18 am 
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Just so we are clear:

1) There are 6 Black Scrolls.
2) There is three Challenge Booths for each Scroll.
3) There is one Pod for each Scroll.
4) It is Jigoku vs Rokugan in the Challenge Booths.
5) It is every Great Clan for itself in the Pod.
6) Rules change for 3-0 Victory on either side in the Challenge Booth.
7) Spider Victory in the Pod means the Imperials find the Scroll.

Leaving us with one of 6 Scenarios per Scroll.

Scenario 1 - Jigoku wins Booth 3-0 or 2-1, Spider wins Pod - Spider get Black Scroll and a Realm-Born.
Scenario 2 - Jigoku wins Booth 3-0, non-Spider wins Pod - Spider get Black Scroll and a Realm-Born, and winner's Clan get a Realm-Born.
Scenario 3 - Jigoku wins Booth 2-1, non-Spider wins Pod - Spider get Black Scroll, winner's Clan gets a Realm-Born.
Scenario 4 - Rokugan wins Booth 3-0, non-Spider wins Pod - Winner's Clan gets Black Scroll and a Realm-Born.
Scenario 5 - Rokugan wins Booth 2-1 or 3-0, Spider wins Pod - Spider get a Realm-Born. Imperials get the Black Scroll.
Scenario 6 - Rokugan wins Booth 2-1, non-Spider wins Pod - Winner's Clan gets Black Scroll.

Edited to fix the one error I found in review. But, still... any Spider Clan player playing for the Rokugani in the Challenge Booth is actually playing AGAINST their Faction getting a prize.

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Last edited by sndwurks on Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:24 am 
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Sparks wrote:
Ok... Nothing says spider can't play. It just says you can't play with shadowlands personalities. Obviously, it's a WAY bigger challenge to put something together without shadowlands peeps in it, but the 'option' is still there.

I guess the biggest bummer I have about this is that this is a set that people are supposed to be excited to buy and play with their friends. It seems to alienate spider players from the fun for all packaging this is supposed to bring. I guess, the spider players can always play as Junzo with their playgroup, but that can only be fun for so long. And, of course, Spider players can play non shadowlands decks. :p


we have 7 untainted samurai, 10 untainted monks, and 8 courtiers. thats less than half our personality base. thats not taking into account the fact that our entire clan is supposedly based on fear, and our best fear personalities are shadowlands. theres no way of interpreting this as anything but lame (at the very best).

but this is besides the point. even if we managed to find a deck that worked under these preposterous conditions, we wouldn't want to. because it HURTS US TO DO SO. we want the challenge booths to fail miserably. because the more they fail the more good stuff for the spider.

thats just weak suace. we've been a very restive group for a long time, and things are slowly starting to look better but AEG just keeps smacking us around with this stuff. i want to be excited about gencon. i'm signed up to do one of these challenge things. but now i have zero reason to do it. i don't want to win, even if i were capable of it. and i'm a sufficiently terrible player that i also get to worry about the threat of being DQ'ed for sandbagging. way to foster an environment of fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Gencon 2015: the Black Scrolls
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:28 am 
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daigotsu cielago wrote:
Sparks wrote:
Ok... Nothing says spider can't play. It just says you can't play with shadowlands personalities. Obviously, it's a WAY bigger challenge to put something together without shadowlands peeps in it, but the 'option' is still there.

I guess the biggest bummer I have about this is that this is a set that people are supposed to be excited to buy and play with their friends. It seems to alienate spider players from the fun for all packaging this is supposed to bring. I guess, the spider players can always play as Junzo with their playgroup, but that can only be fun for so long. And, of course, Spider players can play non shadowlands decks. :p


we have 7 untainted samurai, 10 untainted monks, and 8 courtiers. thats less than half our personality base. thats not taking into account the fact that our entire clan is supposedly based on fear, and our best fear personalities are shadowlands. theres no way of interpreting this as anything but lame (at the very best).

but this is besides the point. even if we managed to find a deck that worked under these preposterous conditions, we wouldn't want to. because it HURTS US TO DO SO. we want the challenge booths to fail miserably. because the more they fail the more good stuff for the spider.

thats just weak suace. we've been a very restive group for a long time, and things are slowly starting to look better but AEG just keeps smacking us around with this stuff. i want to be excited about gencon. i'm signed up to do one of these challenge things. but now i have zero reason to do it. i don't want to win, even if i were capable of it. and i'm a sufficiently terrible player that i also get to worry about the threat of being DQ'ed for sandbagging. way to foster an environment of fun.



You mistake me giving a way for spider to play as something I agree with. I don't like the fact that Spider doesn't get to participate in what is supposed to be something fun for everyone. I agree with what you said there.

Let's hope AEG lets spider players jump on the Junzo deck! :D

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